Thanks for all the responses - I’m glad to see that I’m at least technically on solid footing.
We’re deep in the Bible Belt here, and in the country to boot, so it was more of an intellectual exercise than anything else, but I think I was mainly peeved that “reverent” was getting co-opted into a religious-only term.
Shelli, I’m really impressed that you’re able to be an atheist scout leader in the south. I don’t know that I could make that choice, but I think that’s awesome that your particular troop is good about DADT regarding your beliefs.
The Declaration was added to the adult volunteer form, and it is something that every adult has to sign if they want to be an official volunteer.
The Oath specifies God - Duty to God and Country specifically. The Law has Reverent, where you follow your faith and respect the faith of others. Some Evangelicals have an issue with this, because in Scouting you must respect the faith of others. This can make Scouts Own services (the term for non-denominational services) tough if you think that you know the One True Way. I have led these services myself, and I sometimes discuss the contradiction of following your own faith while still respecting the faith of others when your faith tells you to go out and convert.
As for how this works on the ground, it really depends on your unit (Pack, Ship, Crew, Post or Troop). In our Pack, the parents sign off on the religion clause and it is recorded by the Advancement Chair. In our Troop, someone will usually ask during the Board of Review for each rank about how the Scout follows their faith. Our California Troop of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists also prays at the end of each meeting with a meaningless heads down homily led by a youth.
During the Board of Review:
IF a Scout states that they are 100% atheist - then they won’t pass the Board, and will have their membership cancelled.
IF a Scout says that they just don’t know, are still questioning, etc. - then they are usually safe.
Does this encourage atheist / agnostic Scouts to keep their mouth shut and just play the game? Yes it does.
-Algher (Scoutmaster, Cubmaster, Eagle Scout, yadda yadda yadda)
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that everyone in my Pack is aware I am an atheist and just not saying anything. I think if really questioned they might possibly branch out to think I am maybe Jewish or Buddhist or something else that would be in the minority in the group, but I think the main reason DADT works so well in this group is because it probably doesn’t occur to them that there are people out there that don’t go to their church.
If push came to shove I would join a UU church to meet the requirements. My oldest son is just now getting into the Troop stuff to go before the Board of Review. I am not worried about that, though, because he is a Christian and can go to church with his dad if he needs to.
The way I see it is that I am following my beliefs, and I respect everyone else’s as well. That’s being reverent.
I have no problem imagining that if I spoke openly about atheism that I would be kicked out. That’s why I don’t.
It’s hard to tell, given the wide disparity in practice from place to place and troop to troop, but it sure sounds like explicit religion is much more prevalent than when I was in, 25-some years ago outside Memphis, TN, in an overwhelmingly Christian area. I don’t particularly recall closing prayers, although I believe there was a typically (maybe not inevitably) religious invocation at the beginning of troop meetings. Certainly no one was quizzed on their religion at Bds of Review.
I seem to remember eliding god from the oath from time to time, but not frequently. I certainly didn’t believe in god at the time, but I was not yet aware that some people actually did, instead of just saying it. (I mostly assumed it was like Santa Claus.)
Glad my kids are both girls, and I don’t have to face the choice of allowing their participation in the organization, or, worse yet, seeing them kicked out if, as I hope, they become atheists themselves.
I think you would find that most Troops don’t really care either, as long as you don’t rub anyone’s face in it. The only risk is if there is one person in the Troop who has an axe to grind, the BSA has given them that axe. I think they started pushing religion more once they won the Dale decision on the basis of being a private organization with a religious bent. Since then, it seems that there is more focus on religion.
But there a lots of Troops that pretty much operate on a more casual level.
100% right. MANY, MANY packs and troops are don’t ask, don’t tell on religion. If you coach your son to be sure he’s not going around questioing or mocking the beliefs of other boys, you’ll likely be fine. As was said upthread, you are the religious leader for your son if you don’t go to church. The one issue boys can have is the board of review, especially an eagle board, as the people on the board can’t be your son’s leaders or otherwise from your pack. Any time he’s asked about religion he should have some answer ready, and it can be just about as areligious as you can imagine. He sees divinity or some higher power in nature, or human conciousness, etc. He respects the religious beliefs of others. Maybe he takes some interest in religious history.
At the end of the day, it’s your choice whether he can say the scout law and you can subscribe to the declaration of religious principle. Can the both of you feel ok about that? reverent means what he wants it to mean. Religious principle means what you want it to mean. If you’re what some people call a militant atheist of the “there is no god and ths belief is massively important to me” kind of person, maybe that’s disingenuous and makes you feel icky. If you’re more of a “some people belive in god and that’s nice but that’s just not important to me or not something I’ve thought a great deal about” kind of athiest, I think you can be honest and still fit in.
I’m a VERY agnostic Scouter and it’s not an issue for me.
If I’d have stayed in, there’s no way I could have answered a question about faith honestly and stayed in by the time I’d have been having my Eagle Board. Seems like a pretty awful time to have to choose your integrity or the fruition of a half-decade of work.
I’m a hardcore atheist, and I’m very reverent and respectful at times when people are praying, pledging, etc. I even bow my head when others are praying out of respect for their beliefs.