Doesn’t matter what I think.
What’s the US’s international reputation these days? I agree NK is a horrible place,and we’re no where near as bad as them, over all, but what rights to do have to complain about the treatment of our journalists? How many have we sent to Syria to have their knuckles repeatedly broken “just because”? How many have suffered waterbaording at torturous American hands?
Those journalists need released pronto, but situation is fucked up bad.
Gitmo, shitmo. When the smoke clears, the guys who deserve to be there will get a trial with reduced sentences, and the guys who didn’t/don’t deserve to be their will get a paycheck from Uncle Sam. Not even close to the same thing.
I feel so sorry for those two ladies. I hope they don’t do a day of hard time. They didn’t get what they deserve because they were reckless either. The in barbarian lands, under barbarian law argument is bullshit. They were probably trying to bring the world’s attention to the starving millions in the North Korean countryside. Thats noble.
Money doesn’t automatically undo torture. Nor were all US war crimes in Gitmo.
Would you please provide the cite documenting US compensation for the innocent Canadian Maher Arar who was kidnapped by the US, away from his family, and sent to Syria to be tortured daily till Canada could secure his release?
I assume if you can’t provide that cite you’ll retract your claim that innocent are payed by the US gov.
Agreed. Problem is we’re becoming “Barbarians” too.
I think you are confused. From what I have read they were in China interviewing refugees from North Korea. They were not in the South. They were north of North Korea. Now it would be difficult to mistake what side of the border you are on. Most if not all of the border has a river you have to cross. Hard to mistake it. But I would not put it past the NKs to be on the wrong side.
Ah…what’s right or wrong has to do with some kind of international popularity contest, ehe? Well…why didn’t you say so!
Well, ‘we’ have the ‘right’ to complain as much as ‘we’ want too. After all, the Euro’s complained about our treatment of prisoners (rightfully), despite the fact that they don’t exactly have a shinning reputation themselves, ken? Or do you think that their past, um, indiscretions, precludes them from being able to point at our glass house? How about the Japanese?
How many journalists? No idea…but I doubt the number has been all that high. How many innocent people? Probably quite a few…maybe a few hundred, maybe even a thousand. Do you have any idea how many men, women and children have been tortured and killed in NK camps? And this doesn’t even get to the millions that have starved to death in NK over the past decade or so. That you seriously entertain the delusion that there is any comparison at all, or that our various abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan means we have nothing to say on this is, well, so fucking over the top that it’s not even in the same universe as the one I inhabit. Heck…I always thought Der Trihs was one of the most delusional posters in existence when it came to this subject, but you are seriously threatening his crown in this thread.
Well, we are certainly in agreement on this point, at least.
-XT
Absolutely, but it helps. 
Neither of those journalists will get a penny no matter how it ends.
Although he wasn’t in Gitmo, got tortured by the Syrians, got over 10 million from the Canadians, the U.S. still thinks he’s a terrorist and currently has an unresolved case against the U.S., I’ll still retract just to be safe.
Who has a better case arguing someone who robs them should be punished? A pick pocket, or a none thief?
Right or wrong our international perception as the war criminals we truly are hurts our ability to put diplomatic pressure on NK.
Does a pick pocket’s compalians about being robbed have as much weight?
Please. Imperial Japan has little bearing on modern Japan. For one thing that was over half a century ago. If you want assign blame for WW2 on modern Japan you’re pretty fucking stupid.
You’re also pretty fucking stupid if you think a few months, at best, of ending torture, but not punishing the monsters who committed these crimes some how absolves America of it’s sins.
You’re not usually that stupid so what’s up dude?
So your argument is “we don’t commit crimes against humanity as much as NK!”?
How about we get these journalists out and stop committing war crimes for good? NK is what a pitcher of the evils we’re casually sipping looks like.
protip: not chatting “USA FUCK YEA NASCAR”, and other mindless jingoism is not delusional.
I actually care about the USA’s future, unlike you, apparently.
The government doesn’t even compensate it’s own citizens for wrongful imprisonment. What on Earth makes you think we’re going to pay out to people who aren’t Americans?
As with Der in these discussions, it’s more than slightly ironic that you are spouting the same knee jerk drivel as the other side…just from a different perspective. No?
-XT
Pointing out the US shouldn’t commit war crimes, because, among other reasons, it damages our diplomatic position when trying to fight human rights violations against our own is knee jerk?
To be fair, it varies by state. I once read a U.S. today with what each state compensates the wrongfully imprisoned. It was years ago. Here are a few stories from Cali. Gitmo is getting closed down. Lots of people knew it was a bad idea from the beginning, now even more people are realizing that. The President wants it closed. The battles to sort out where the detainees go and who exactly deserve to be their have not been resolved. If I’m making too many assumptions I’m sorry, its out of good faith of the U.S.'s court system. I would think being unfairly kept and tortured in Gitmo will eventually be a slam dunk case.
Um…no. But giving a summary of one’s post that doesn’t even vaguely resemble what one posted on the same page is…priceless. Thanks for the Visa moment…
-XT
I remember listening to a truly haunting radio program on North Korea a few months back. It included recordings taken in the city by journalists (I don’t remember if they were done on the border or if they’d managed to get in legally). The journalists were clearly risking their lives, and I commend them for it. Without people like them and Ms. Ling and Lee, we wouldn’t be getting any credible information about what’s going on in North Korea and, ironically, wouldn’t be able to criticize them for taking such risks in the first place.
Ironic. You incorrectly surmise my posts while chastising me because you think I incorrectly surmised my posts.
Heh, except that vast expanse we like to refer to as ‘Persia’. For a good portion of their history, they made the Arabs quite wealthy because the nomadic Arabs controlled the southern expanse below Persia which constituted the only Roman route to China. When Rome made peace with Persia the Arabs went destitute, that was the period directly preceding the life of Mohammed.
There is no “southern expanse” below Persia.
How about i call you an idiot and a douchebag instead?
Why should US citizens be able to traipse around anywhere they want, in violation of other nations’ laws and territory, with no consequences?
Either the concept of national sovereignty means something, or it doesn’t. If it does, then nations should be able to determine the conditions of entry to their territory, and the laws applying to those who choose to enter; if it doesn’t, then anyone (US citizen or not) can just go wherever they want and do whatever they want.
Yes and no. Being in another country without permission is not worthy of 12 years in prison in any way. The trumped up spying charges are nonsense and what would be done in countries that weren’t brutal ultra-secretive regimes is the offending person is sent back to their own country.
But there are plenty of civilized, democratic countries in the world who don’t have, and who disagree completely with, the death penalty. For those countries, executing someone for a crime is not “in any way” a justifiable sentence. But if you commit certain crimes in certain US states, the possible penalty is death, and the fact that people outside the US don’t like it, and consider it barbaric and uncivilized, doesn’t change that fact.
Similarly, while all sane people agree that 12 years in prison is not a reasonable sentence for straying across a border, sane people also realize that the NK government is run by fanatical lunatics, and they also know that the NK government is especially hostile to America and Americans. If you had told me, before this all happened, that the likely punishment for an American journalist caught in NK illegally was 12 years in prison, i wouldn’t have been at all surprised, because i know what NK is like. And i would have taken extra special care not to “accidentally” cross into NK territory.
Furthermore, CyclopticXander’s comment, which i quoted in my post, appears to apply beyond this particular case. He seems to be arguing that US citizens should, by simple virtue of their country’s global power, be able to waltz around wherever they like. Well, that’s exactly the sort of American hubris that makes so many people elsewhere in the world look on the United states with a jaundiced eye.
As for “trumped-up” charges and “ultra-secretive” regimes, the past few years have shown that the Kim Jong Il isn’t the Lone Ranger when it comes to such tactics.
You see apples and apples, where I see apples and oranges. I’ve never had much time for Oh, yeah, well Bush was WORSE! as an argument.
Our words can carry moral weight because we’re not talking about the same things. Fighting in a war, just or not, is not the same as imprisoning journalists for 12 years for nothing. Nor am I required to gauge the moral equivalency of two such different events.
I have absolutely no intention in engaging in the billionth argument about how George Bush was teh suxxor, but neither will I concede that you have any standing to dismiss the “moral authority” of the U.S. or anyone other than yourself, in this or any other area.
IOW: Sez you.