North Korea sentences U.S journalists to twelve years in labour camp

[Marley23]

Here’s a Washington Post story about what happens to some of the women who sneak out of North Korea. Human trafficking, women being sold, I’m sure you’ll find it’s a big snoozefest.

@Merneith

What some posters are saying is: The US spent the last several years kidnapping and torturing people on trumped up charges. Now two US citizens have been (sort of) kidnapped and (possibly) tortured on trumped up charges.

What some posters are saying is that if the US tries to generate any international pressure over this, the US is unlikely to receive anything but a shrug and maybe a tee-shirt with the words, “Karma’s a Bitch!”

International politics being the murky thing it is, I am not sure this is true, and North Korea being what it is, I hope it’s not the case. But what’s pissing me off is that this turned into bitching about Bush and the international standing of the U.S. Why is that the big issue here rather than journalists being held prisoner and used as bargaining chips for attempting to report on a humanitarian crisis?

The last eight years can’t have helped with this situation, or any other situation. Say pretty much anything about how terrible the Guantanamo camp is and I’ll probably agree; I certainly said it often enough myself over the last eight years. But the focus on Bush is myopic and stupid, and it makes little sense here. It just isn’t the fucking issue. It’s particularly stupid to do what some posters here are doing, which is throwing the situation in everybody else’s face: some of us knew the detention camps and black ops sites were a bad idea. So do we have the right to complain, which is apparently denied people who were not up to speed?

@sailor

Can you name names and quote posts? Because … well… who has named Bush? And who has said the women should be “sacrificed to North Korea”?

You’re right. If they didn’t say those exact words, my argument fails. :rolleyes: Meanwhile…

@Bill_Door

I’ve got to agree with this. These people got a trial and a release date. That’s more than a lot of people in Guantanomo get.

@Bill_Door

Really? Because at face value the American government sent armed men 10,000 miles away to kidnap people from their own back yards, transport them halfway around the world to a country where they could be tortured without trial, and held them indefinitely. In the meantime North Korea arrested two people who illegally crossed their border, tried them, and gave them a determinate sentence.

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

This thread is another reason why anyone who voted for Bush is a stupid evil piece of trash. Thanks to their treason and/or stupidity we’re no better then North Korea.

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Doesn’t matter. As Americans our words of condemnation against NK appear self serving and shallow, they carry little, if any, moral weight. Thanks to Bush, and the tools who voted for him.

[…]

And what moral weight do we have to argue for their freedom? We’re the murderers of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and the torturers of god knows how many. How can our words carry moral weight?

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

What’s the US’s international reputation these days? I agree NK is a horrible place,and we’re no where near as bad as them, over all, but what rights to do have to complain about the treatment of our journalists? How many have we sent to Syria to have their knuckles repeatedly broken “just because”? How many have suffered waterbaording at torturous American hands?

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Does a pick pocket’s compalians about being robbed have as much weight?

[Jodi]

@Shodan

And apparently, until you and/or sailor are satisfied with our policy, the US has jack shit to say about what NK does.

That’s pretty stupid. It is, in fact, pretty equivalent to saying that nobody gets to complain about what the US does to prisoners, either.

And that’s what is so dispicable about it as a position, IMO.

I don’t care if you think BushCo., Guantanamo, Iraq, etc. constitute crimes against humanity for which formal trials should be had at the Hague. (“First we’re gonna try you, and then we’re gonna give you a first-class hanging!”) Fine. But the repeated assertion that there is some base level of “moral authority” that must be had before injustice can be disputed – that’s very troubling. Because then who has the authority to act? Whose hands are clean enough? And until the US has somehow expiated its perceived sins or enough time has gone by for them to be forgotten – what the hell do we do in the meantime? Just abdicate not just our right but our responsibility to try to do anything good? Throw up our hands because, hey, nobody’s going to take us seriously, right?

The problem with never talking about anything but America’s sins, internationally speaking, is that then we never talk about anything else, much less act on it. It’s a convenient excuse to abdicate any moral authority on the world stage by pre-emptively volunteering that, heck, at this point we don’t have any. So global injustice – not our problem!

[mhendo]

@Marley23

So do we have the right to complain, which is apparently denied people who were not up to speed?

And here is the heart of the matter.

No-one has even once asserted that you, or individual Americans, don’t have the right, or the moral authority, to complain about North Korea’s treatment of these prisoners. But, as others have already noted, the opinions of individual citizens are not really what counts here; what counts is the position taken by the US government. The main argument has been that the US government, if it takes a hostile position towards North Korea’s actions in this case, is likely to be perceived by many as lacking moral authority in the matter, given the prior actions of the US government.

I should add, by the way, that i think the actions of the Bush administration were merely the apex (actually, nadir would probably be the more appropriate word) of an even longer string of foreign policy hypocrisy. For example, America’s blowhard rhetoric regarding national sovereignty, the inviolability of borders, and the need to respect other nations’ independence during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait rang pretty hollow to anyone with even a vague sense of history (Guatemala, Iran, Vietnam, Cambodia, East Timor, Chile).

@Jodi

The problem with never talking about anything but America’s sins, internationally speaking, is that then we never talk about anything else, much less act on it. It’s a convenient excuse to abdicate any moral authority on the world stage by pre-emptively volunteering that, heck, at this point we don’t have any. So global injustice – not our problem!

Actually, my argument is not that the US shouldn’t do anything about global injustice. I’ve simply been pointing out that, in cases where it chooses to act, those whom it acts against, and the third parties looking on, might raise an eyebrow and question whether America shouldn’t get its own house in order first.

If someone accuses you of stealing, do you take them just as seriously if they are up to their elbow in the cookie jar while making the accusation?

[sailor]

Look it is very simple. Those who defend the right of the US government to do certain things should be defending the right of the Korean government to do the same things unless they are hypocritical asses.

The US government is in no position, logical, moral or otherwise, to condemn North Korea for doing the same as the US does. As long as America does not stop certain practices and admits they are and were wrong it is in no position to criticize others for doing the same.

I, on the other hand, having always condemned certain actions by the US government and by anyone else , am in a position where I can and do condemn the Human Rights abuses of the North Korean regime. And I can do this without hypocrisy nor lack of consistency.

But the usual suspects doth protest too loud here because to them it is OK when America does it.

Regards
Shodan.

[Marley23]

@mhendo

The main argument has been that the US government, if it takes a hostile position towards North Korea’s actions in this case, is likely to be perceived by many as lacking moral authority in the matter, given the prior actions of the US government.

What I’m left wondering is why anybody gives a crap about who has a higher moral standing than whom. It’s angels dancing on the head of pin. The idea that any country has any moral authority is basically a joke. Any government will get away with what it can in any given situation.

[mhendo]

@Shodan

And apparently, until you and/or sailor are satisfied with our policy, the US has jack shit to say about what NK does.

That’s pretty stupid. It is, in fact, pretty equivalent to saying that nobody gets to complain about what the US does to prisoners, either.

A quick point about this, and about Jodi’s response to it:

No-one says that anyone has to be perfect in order to make a valid criticism. But if your hypocrisy lies in the very specific area under dispute, then it’s harder to claim moral authority.

We are talking here about countries that imprison people for long periods of time, without open and transparent justice, for crimes that are either minor or, in some cases, unknown or nonexistent. The whole argument that the US detention of foreign nationals is completely different from this North Korean case rests on the assumption that everyone in Guantanamo is, in fact, as criminal and as dangerous as the US has asserted. But i think that anyone with even a passing interest in the issue must surely know by now that this is not the case.

If the US is to act in this particular case, it has to realize that the issue is not just these two journalists, but the question of whether countries have the right to lock up foreign nationals for years on end without due process. And, on that particular issue, the US currently has less moral authority that just about any other Western, democratic nation. As i said, you don’t have to be perfect; Canada is not perfect, but if the two journalists were Canadian, i think the moral authority of the complaining party would be much stronger.

@Marley23

What I’m left wondering is why anybody gives a crap about who has a higher moral standing than whom. It’s angels dancing on the head of pin. The idea that any country has any moral authority is basically a joke. Any government will get away with what it can in any given situation.

I happen to agree with that. But as long as governments claim moral authority for themselves (and America is probably World Champion in this regard), i think it’s reasonable to assess whether their claims have any basis in reality.

[Jodi]

@mhendo

Actually, my argument is not that the US shouldn’t do anything about global injustice. I’ve simply been pointing out that, in cases where it chooses to act, those whom it acts against, and the third parties looking on, might raise an eyebrow and question whether America shouldn’t get its own house in order first.

So fine, they raise an eyebrow. What then? Do we sit back down, or do we try to move forward with the “doing something” part. So they question “whether America shouldn’t get its house in order first.” Again: Fine. Then what?

I see the point, but I honest to God don’t get the value in getting so completely hung up on it that a discussion can’t move past it. I didn’t see anyone – anyone in this thread saying “We’ve got our own issues, but . . . .” or “Well, they might not take us seriously but . . . .” with the “buts” followed by relevant discussion of these journalists, their predicament, and what we as a nation could possibly do about it. Even if your last post you STILL are not talking about the subject of this OP, you’re STILL so focused on American hypocrisy that now you’re talking about Kuwait, for God’s sake. (Next post: Vietnam!)

I get that you and others are “simply pointing out” what you perceive as American hypocrisy. Got it. Check. See that. No need to defend it: I got it. And I ask again: At what point do we get to talk about something else, not to avoid the censure you feel is our nation’s collective just due, but because some other things might actually merit talking about, and acting upon?

If a thief is in turn trying to prevent a theft, ISTM that the question of how seriously to take him, should be secondary to the question of whether the theft should be prevented and, if so, how that could be accomplished.

[Jodi]

@sailor

Look it is very simple. Those who defend the right of the US government to do certain things should be defending the right of the Korean government to do the same things unless they are hypocritical asses.

Then (A) either the relevant parties (like, say, the current administration) never “defended the right of the US government to do certain things” or (B) the relevant parties did do that and are, IYO, hypocritical asses. Again: At what point are you able to move on and discuss North Korea, these journalists, and what realistically could be done about the former and/or the latter? Ever?

The US government is in no position, logical, moral or otherwise, to condemn North Korea for doing the same as the US does. As long as America does not stop certain practices and admits they are and were wrong it is in no position to criticize others for doing the same.

Of course we are! Because if we don’t, who will? Again, the immorality of this is IMO completely despicable. You abdicate any obligation to condemn injustice because IYO we do not have the proper “position” to do so. It’s a postion I find utterly contemptible. Again, you seem to be all in favor of injustice so long as someone else is committing it.

I, on the other hand, having always condemned certain actions by the US government and by anyone else , am in a position where I can and do condemn the Human Rights abuses of the North Korean regime. And I can do this without hypocrisy nor lack of consistency.

Well, gold star! Perhaps you’d like to tell us about what YOU think should be done vis a vis North Korea and these journalists, now that you’ve established your bona fides? Or would that be too on-topic for you?

[sailor]

@Jodi

Of course we are! Because if we don’t, who will? Again, the immorality of this is IMO completely despicable. You abdicate any obligation to condemn injustice because IYO we do not have the proper “position” to do so. It’s a postion I find utterly contemptible.

Well, what I find contemptible and hypocritical is for someone to condemn the actions of others while engaging in the same actions themselves and defending such practices.

If you find it logical and consistent that the US government can condemn North Korea for doing things which the US government itself does and defends then I think there is something wrong with your logic.

@Jodi

Again, you seem to be all in favor of injustice so long as someone else is committing it.

We have already established you are retarded. There is no need to continue down this path.

[mhendo]

@Jodi

If a thief is in turn trying to prevent a theft, ISTM that the question of how seriously to take him, should be secondary to the question of whether the theft should be prevented and, if so, how that could be accomplished.

OK, let’s look at the “theft” then.

One thing i find rather puzzling is that no-one seems willing to even contemplate the fact that these journalists might have intentionally been on the North Korean side of the border. They were, after all, working on stories specifically about the border zone, and about North Korea. They were in the area to interview North Korean defectors.

I’ve seen plenty of documentaries, and read plenty of stories, in which journalists risk arrest by crossing into areas illegally, or filming and interviewing in places where they know they’re not allowed to be. I have a lot of respect for their courage in doing this, especially when their aim is to reveal things like human rights violations.

But because i’ve seen other journalists do this, i’m also willing to countenance the possibility that these two journalists did, in fact, cross the border into North Korea in full knowledge of what they were doing, in an attempt to interview people on the NK side of the border. And if they did that, knowing that they were crossing illegally, and knowing the North Korean position on foreign journalists working in the country, then it’s hard to argue that they are completely innocent.

North Korea’s system of political oppression and its lack of due process are awful things, but if you go into a country with such a system, you have to accept that you will be subject to it if you are caught doing something that is against their law. As i suggested earlier, i disagree strongly with the death penalty, and i think it’s barbaric and the sign of an uncivilized society. But i know that if i go to Texas and commit certain crimes, i might be subject to it. Similarly, while smuggling a few ounces of drugs into Australia or Canada might get me a few years in prison, in Indonesia it could get me the death penalty.

As i said earlier, either national sovereignty means something or it doesn’t; either countries can set their own laws, or they can’t; either nations can choose their own systems of justice, or they can’t.

[Jodi]

Listen, if you expect me to actually feel insulting, you’re going to have to bring bigger ammo than “retarded.” Though FYI, that’s not really the accepted term here in the 21st century anyway. If you have some free time after delving the depths of American hypocrisy, you might check into improving your personal cultural sensitivity.

@Jodi

Perhaps you’d like to tell us about what YOU think should be done vis a vis North Korea and these journalists, now that you’ve established your bona fides?

So apparently the answers to this is “no.” Well, I’ll leave you to it then. Congratulations on a successful thread-shitting. You should be very proud.

[Marley23]

@mhendo

One thing i find rather puzzling is that no-one seems willing to even contemplate the fact that these journalists might have intentionally been on the North Korean side of the border. They were, after all, working on stories specifically about the border zone, and about North Korea. They were in the area to interview North Korean defectors.

If you think about it, it’s hard to interview North Korean defectors inside North Korea. I leave it to you to figure out why.

But yes, I agree that we can’t presume the journalists were in China, or that they were only in North Korea by accident. In fact, it’s more likely they took the risk as part of their job. The alternative is that North Korea deliberately made a raid into China, which would be a colossal gamble on North Korea’s part.

And if they did that, knowing that they were crossing illegally, and knowing the North Korean position on foreign journalists working in the country, then it’s hard to argue that they are completely innocent.

However, it’s still entirely possible to argue that the punishment is absurd and inhumane, and that the reporters took their risk for a good cause. Both are true, in my opinion. Ling and Lee probably knew what would happen if they got caught.

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

@sailor

Can you name names and quote posts? Because … well… who has named Bush? And who has said the women should be “sacrificed to North Korea”? Is it the voices in your head again?

In fairness I did mention Bush. Also in fairness I never said we should leave them there and infact stated, despite Marley being a disingenuous, slanderous pisshole and leaving these quotes out, that we should do something.
Here’s some deleted scenes from Marley and Me:

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Simple solution. Return the journalists or cruise missiles level every government building in NK.

If China doesn’t want ww3 it won’t interfere. If it wants NK’s government to remain intact it’ll see to it that the journalists are returned.

I’m tired of dealing with these assholes.

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Ahh interesting point but isn’t the question: is NK’s government willing to be leveled over a couple of journalists?

Yes clearly I feel the US should do nothing. Just look at my passive acceptance of the situation.

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Doesn’t matter what I think.

What’s the US’s international reputation these days? I agree NK is a horrible place,and we’re no where near as bad as them, over all, but what rights to do have to complain about the treatment of our journalists? How many have we sent to Syria to have their knuckles repeatedly broken “just because”? How many have suffered waterbaording at torturous American hands?

Those journalists need released pronto, but situation is fucked up bad.

Marely23 quoted part of that but edited the bottom part out. He’d rather twist people’s words with selective quoting then have an honest debate it seems.

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Pointing out the US shouldn’t commit war crimes, because, among other reasons, it damages our diplomatic position when trying to fight human rights violations against our own is knee jerk?

In Marely23’s world point out our own bad reputation might bite us in the ass and make it harder means the same thing as saying we shouldn’t do anything.
Now on to something different:

@Jodi

Our words can carry moral weight because we’re not talking about the same things.

Really? We’ve committed no extreme human rights violations in the last 8 years?

Fighting in a war, just or not, is not the same as imprisoning journalists for 12 years for nothing. Nor am I required to gauge the moral equivalency of two such different events.

Torturing, and holding nonPOWs without trial is a legitimate part of war? Do you have a cite for this? I can think of pretty good cite, that the US signed, proving it isn’t.

I have absolutely no intention in engaging in the billionth argument about how George Bush was teh suxxor, but neither will I concede that you have any standing to dismiss the “moral authority” of the U.S. or anyone other than yourself, in this or any other area.

Tell that to the victims of Abu Ghraib.

IOW: Sez you.

And torture victims of the US, among others.

[mhendo]

@Marley23

However, it’s still entirely possible to argue that the punishment is absurd and inhumane, and that the reporters took their risk for a good cause. Both are true, in my opinion. Ling and Lee probably knew what would happen if they got caught.

Right, but if all we can agree on is that the punishment is absurd and inhumane, what recourse should the US have in this matter, and what should it try to do?

After all, most people think that chopping off the hands of thieves, or whipping women for being the victims of rape, are also absurd and inhumane, but we haven’t shown much spine with Saudi Arabia on those issues? I guess you could argue that we owe a special duty to Ling and Lee because they are American citizens, but people have been arguing in this thread that it’s the principle that is important, so surely this is true no matter who the victims are?

[Marley23]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Marely23 quoted part of that but edited the bottom part out. He’d rather twist people’s words with selective quoting then have an honest debate it seems.

Your comments are stupid enough without any help from me: ‘moral equivalence, moral equivalence, moral equivalence.’ Gitmo’s bad. What’s it have to do with these women again? Oh, I see: it’s sort of similar if you ignore all the bits that are different. A trenchant analysis if ever I saw one. Given all the things Bush did fuck up, it’s remarkable that you’re harping like this one something that didn’t have anything to do with him. It’s not as if all the legit avenues have been exhausted.

[Marley23]

@mhendo

After all, most people think that chopping off the hands of thieves, or whipping women for being the victims of rape, are also absurd and inhumane, but we haven’t shown much spine with Saudi Arabia on those issues?

Which is unfortunate and wrong.

I guess you could argue that we owe a special duty to Ling and Lee because they are American citizens, but people have been arguing in this thread that it’s the principle that is important, so surely this is true no matter who the victims are?

It’s not that they are owed more because they are U.S. citizens; I’d think it was just as wrong if North Korea was holding Chinese or Japanese reporters or anybody else. The U.S. has more power to do something about the capture of its own citizens than it does about the treatment of Saudi Arabians by Saudi Arabia. I wish human rights was more of a concern for most governments, but it’s usually nothing more than a feel-good issue because they don’t want to be called on their own wrongdoing.

To reframe this a little: if there had never been a prison camp in Guantanamo, these reporters still would have been taken captive if they were doing what they were doing. The injustice of the imprisonment would be the same. And frankly I think people would be coming up with different reasons the U.S. had no moral standing to do anything, because Iraq still would’ve happened.

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

@Marley23

Your comments are stupid enough without any help from me: ‘moral equivalence, moral equivalence, moral equivalence.’ Gitmo’s bad. What’s it have to do with these women again? Oh, I see: it’s sort of similar if you ignore all the bits that are different. A trenchant analysis if ever I saw one. Given all the things Bush did fuck up, it’s remarkable that you’re harping like this one something that didn’t have anything to do with him. It’s not as if all the legit avenues have been exhausted.

Yes being shipped off to Syria to receive daily beatings because the US doesn’t like the looks of you is totally innocent compared to what these journalists face.

Oh wait no it’s not. The point of that, which you seem to either too stupid to get, or are willfully ignoring, is our own crimes are going to make it harder to protect these innocents. Does a known thief’s words of how wrong robbery is bear much weight?
You put me in list saying they “should be sacrificed to North Korea”.

If you value honesty you’ll tell me where I said anything that means that, or retract your accusations of me.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@sailor

Look it is very simple. Those who defend the right of the US government to do certain things should be defending the right of the Korean government to do the same things unless they are hypocritical asses.

…snip…
Regards
Shodan.

Has anyone ever seen sailor and Shodan in the same room at the same time?

Jekyll and Hyde?

Just askin’

[Marley23]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

Oh wait no it’s not. The point of that, which you seem to either too stupid to get, or are willfully ignoring, is our own crimes are going to make it harder to protect these innocents.

I disagree. Since when does Kim Jong-Il give a fuck about anybody’s moral standing? Get real. He kidnaps South Korean actors and holds them hostage so they can make movies to his taste while his country starves. You think he cares about what happens in Guantanamo? He doesn’t care what happens in North Korea. You think the moral standing of the U.S. has been diminished with China or Russia, those peerless moral nations? The U.S.'s closest allies may think less of the country, then again, I don’t think they’re having mixed feelings on what North Korea did here.

[The_Tao_s_Revenge]

@Marley23

I disagree. Since when does Kim Jong-Il give a fuck about anybody’s moral standing? Get real. He kidnaps South Korean actors and holds them hostage so they can make movies to his taste while his country starves. You think he cares about what happens in Guantanamo? He doesn’t care what happens in North Korea. You think the moral standing of the U.S. has been diminished with China or Russia, those peerless moral nations? The U.S.'s closest allies may think less of the country, then again, I don’t think they’re having mixed feelings on what North Korea did here.

Which is why I proposed military solution at the start of the thread. The thing I think you’re over looking is the US and NK don’t exist in a bubble. Other countries will be involved in this. China most certainly will be, and they certainly have vast influence in NK. China doesn’t care much for human rights but other countries certainly do. It’d be much easier to convince other countries to put diplomatic pressure on China, if you you know, we were the good guys. Not hypocritical lesser villains.