I agree. As I’ve specifically said several times, including the OP, I’m not advocating for any change in the law, nor for kids to have sex or have babies, just for an adjustment in our attitudes and conversation about these topics.
I think this is a dangerous argument to take. You make it sound like people exaggerate about how bad rape is, but I think we have the opposite problem. That is, that many people think that because it’s an acquaintance rape it’s not that bad or not that violent. And there are a lot of guys who do think they’re not rapists because even though they forced a woman to have sex, at least it wasn’t a stranger in the bushes.
As Cat Fight said, we could play the “it’s not as bad as x” game all night. It doesn’t really mean anything. You could also make the argument that the woman who is raped by a stranger may be less afraid of the people she knows, whereas the woman who is raped by her husband or boyfriend may now fear getting emotionally close to any man because of what’s happened to her.
Furthermore, acting as though it’s not that bad because you know the person or you’re not a stranger has some disturbing implications to me. Is a guy less of a rapist if he knew the woman beforehand or had a relationship with her? That almost implies that if you know a woman or if she’s had sex with you before, you have more of a right to her body than a stranger.
What attitudes exactly would you prefer for people to have? Girls are in the dating pool but not really?
Not getting your point, but wanting to…
I thought this was about a 25 year old guy and a 17 year old girl, and he thinks she’s 21, because that’s what her sister’s driver license said when she used it to get served at a bar. He can go to jail and be labeled a sex offender for life. Or about someone who decides they were raped after the fact. Or someone being investigated for taking naked pictures of their babies in a bathtub.
But every discussion on this subject turns into accusations of apologizing for pedophiles, and advocating rape. The problem is about prosecution based on fear instead of reason. An innocent person labled as a sex offender adds another victim, and prevents no crimes.
You made an erroneous leap that I minimize rape when the rapist is known. I don’t. Note what I also said:
My own personal example of a lesser kind of rape had the following clue about why I considered it a low-level sort of rape, when I described myself as:
Which actually had everything in the world to do with why and how it happened. I didn’t really want to have sex, but it’s not like I was being particularly discerning at the time, and the events leading up to the actual moment when intercourse occurred were hardly screaming “This girl is saying no and means it and you’d be a gigantic raping asshole not to instantly stop trying and escort her politely to the door.” In the end it was just simpler to let him fuck me and get it over with than make an issue of it. I didn’t even think of it as rape at the time, but years later when the idea of date rape emerged, I knew that it was. But it wasn’t really much of a bigger deal than all the other low-life, casual, stupid sex I was having.
And it would never in a million years happen to me today, for many different reasons.
My point is and remains: the lines just aren’t that clear. People with penises are not automatically demonic criminals who are perfectly clear that they are committing rape and people with vaginas are not automatically innocent, responsibility free fragile flowers who have been taken advantage of by the big bad penis-wielding people.
Human beings are not that simple and human sexuality just isn’t that cut and dried, and a lot of what we all need to know to both be better and to be safer takes time to learn, on both sides, and we would be better served to recognize that.
We don’t put girls in prison for not being able to give legal consent either. What are you talking about?
So? That wasn’t your first post. Your first post was:
You mention her by name, imply that she’s crazy or at least talking out of her mind, and don’t even have the decency to talk to her directly. That’s not the comment of a concerned person. That’s an ad hominem–an attempt to discredit the OP not because her arguments are bad, but by casting aspersions on her character. In other words, an attack.
And then you continue on that rant. You claim that you think she’s really a victim, but are you treating her like a victim? No, you admit you want to Pit her. If she’s just deluded by the trauma, why would you want to hurt her more, rather help her see the error, and get help?
Okay, so maybe it isn’t that you think she’s a victim. Maybe you just think her opinion is so appalling that it warrants such treatment. So where’s your attack on everyone else who agrees with her? Oh, wait, you only have a problem with Stoid. Why could that be?
I can definitely see why Stoid thinks this is just yet another attack on her. I’m going to be more charitable, and say it’s because she doesn’t fit into your worldview. “She’s been raped, and doesn’t think it was the most horrible thing in the world. She must be deluded by trauma, but no one believes me.” You brought up her past behavior and mischaracterized her posts, not because you hate her, but because you were angry and irrationally thought it would help you score a point against her.
And, anyways, I’ll point out that I agree with Stoid, as well. Just because rapes are under-reported or disbelieved doesn’t mean that a sizable portion don’t overreact, losing the ability to think rationally. It is annoying, and I could have made the exact same post she did. I just don’t because I know some people here can’t discuss this topic rationally, whether for good reasons or bad.
But, according to your logic, I guess I was raped, too, and it was just so traumatic that I’ve completely forgotten about it.
I think that what Stoid is trying to say, and something that I agree with, is that while “suck my dick or walk the 5 miles home” can (and probably should) be considered rape, its a bit different to stranger jumping out of the bushes and pounding away on you at knife point.
That’s not to say the pyschological impact is different, which is something that I am in no way qualified to answer. What I do know is that I have been “forced” in the past to do things I find distasteful, but have never been physically coerced to that degree.
Loath to wade into this one but since I’ve seen this line from you many times Dio, what are your feelings about other countries where the age of consent is different from the US? The two countries I know most about, UK and DK, have the age set at 16 and 15 respectively. Is there something different over here that means that the populations ‘requisite brain development’ is a little ahead of the US? Both the major US ‘milestones’ (age of consent and the drinking age) are set later in life than most of the world’s countries, is there something about the US upbringing that makes this necessary?
Agreed that a 30/15 relationship would initially make me a little skeptical, but I would be willing to give those involved the benefit of the doubt, your ‘burn them!’ approach just seems to be a huge knee jerk reaction.
I agree with the OP in this sense: whenever a subject gets the “taboo” treatment, one can’t discuss it rationally and openly any more. Sincere, open-minded inquiries are met by reactionary defenses of emotionally-driven viewpoints, or by cynical and paranoid projections onto the inquirer. Just look at the responses to the OP. It’s amazing to watch. The dialectic metaphor quickly devolves from “scientists in laboratory search for truth” to “hysterical sanctimony drowns-out the truth.”
There are things beside rape and pedophilia that cause as much, if not more harm, yet aren’t given the “taboo” treatment. For example: running red lights or stop signs, besides often causing death or life-destroying mental and physics handicaps, also can cause PTSD. Speaking of PTSD, consider what soldiers can experience in war. War PTSD can be utterly life-devastating. All I’m saying is that there are lots of things in this world that result in severe mental and physical trauma, and I agree with the OP that rape and pedophilia have been emotionally been singled-out while other actions which can with similar likelihood result in worse consequences (death for instance) are discussed we sober detachment, with low argumentative energy, the subject regarded with mere academic curiosity,
Stoid, you said,“the possible degrees of difference and severity are real.”
I absolutely agree. The problem is, those degrees depend almost entirely on the person who is on the receiving end of the violation. You think that sex with a woman who is drunk enough to say yes to something she wouldn’t if she were sober, is not rape and should not be considered as such. What if she thinks it is? What if her reaction is exacerbated by the very fact that someone was callous enough to knowingly take advantage of her ‘stupidity’ as you characterize it?
You characterize your ‘date rape’ as no big deal, or something you don’t feel all that bad about. I’m glad you don’t have a lingering problem with it. But many people feel terribly violated by such an action. You refer to it as sex when you weren’t really up for it. I refer to it as an absolute violation of trust by the one person who should have been most trustworthy. Obviously we differ in our experience. The problem is, you seem to want to decide for other people, what constitutes a traumatic situation and how they should be able to deal with it.
We might be well-served by a more nuanced reaction to rape or what we think of a pedophilia, but dismissing what you don’t consider to be valid, isn’t the way to accomplish that.
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What is DK?
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Excellent questions.
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To be accurate, it’s burn HIM, not “them” - she’s an emotionally stalled mental midget that can’t possibly understand how horrifying and scarring sex is until after she experiences the magical transformation that occurs all at once on her 18th birthday, after which she will, with the perfect clarity that her birthday has provided, make nothing but rational, well-reasoned and life affirming decisions, including the ones to have sex…which, now that she’s 18, will become an excellent experience.
Yes, I know.
Well, thirdwarning, you have stumbled right into the wacky world of The Irrational Way People Sacrifice Their Brains When Thinking About Sex.
We all have to take responsibility for the many bad decisions we make when we get drunk, and bad sexual decisions are not some special rarefied exception. She doesn’t get to cop out with some bullshit about how the big bad Penis Wielder took advantage of her to get out of taking responsibility for her bad sexual decisions.
Because if we DO let her play that game…who are we going to blame when she makes the Very Bad Decision to Drink, Drive and Kill People? It is completely irrational and thoroughly indefensible to assert that a woman can properly go to jail for drinking and driving, and in the same universe also assert that she can have HIM sent to jail for her (nowhere near as bad) decision of drinking and fucking.
And that is the perfect example of exactly how unreasonable and irrational people can be when the subject involves sex. They tend to check their brains at the door.
And just to be clear, I’ve been very specific that the only circumstance where I think I’m dead right and I don’t buy it is the “I was drunk so it was rape” crap, as just explained. Not in any other circumstance, and I’ve stated that repeatedly.
You and everyone else need to stop making the leap that I’m saying that my idea of what’s minor or major should be the determining factor. I haven’t said that. So please pay closer attention, it really gets so damn frustrating to have to go back, quote myself, point to posts I’ve already made and say over and over and over: "See what I said 5, 15, 20 posts back? See what I said right out the gate? See what I said here? SEE SEE SEE? SEE WHERE I DIDN’T SAY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING I SAID? SEE???
Please. Seriously. PLEASE. If you want to give me shit about what I say, I’m ready and willing, no problem at all…but I am SO FUCKING SICK of having to show people that I DIDN’T FUCKING SAY whatever they are giving me shit for and a whole BUNCH Of the time I said JUST THE REVERSE.
Damn I am SO fucking tired of that…it’s BORING.
And one more bit of rantyness on that… I don’t tell people to fuck off, I don’t pit people, I don’t make it personal; I’m here for the mental exercise and exchange. But the way people DO NOT fucking PAY ATTENTION to the GODDAMN WORDS ON THE GODDAMN SCREEN and just take a few bits here and there and assume a bunch of other stuff, then take me to fucking task for THEIR INVENTED VERSION really tests me to my limits and it’s really the only thing that makes me want to respond with a resounding “YOU know what? FUCK YOU. If you want to debate, READ THE FUCKING THREAD AND PASS A COMPREHENSION TEST.”
ARGH!
Sorry… not specific to you, Third, obviously… you just caught me at a moment when I’m topped off and needed to vent.
I now return us all to the regularly scheduled thread.
Thank you.
Oh, and (obviously, I would think) I’m not just talking about this thread…this is a perpetual problem.
All done.
My first reply was eaten by the hamsters. Probably a good thing. On the issue of date rape with the quotes around it as if it isn’t “real” rape along with the personal account and the “but I got over it attitude” I vehemently disagree. That attitude is why that type of rape is so horrible. If a stranger rapes you atknife point no one is going to say you were asking for it or culpable. The person going through that does not experience so much of a sense of guilt and self-blame although there is some I understand and certainly varies from case to case.
However, I do admit this is a very touchy personal subject so perhaps I am not completely objective. Nevertheless, I think the OP’s statement is wrong and somewhat a slap in the face.
Those are the typical ages of consent in the US too. Some states have it at 14. I don’t care what legal ages of consent are. It’s still scummy for 30 year olds to fuck 15 year olds regardless of how backwards consent laws may be.
Shes a child incapable of consent. That’s hard biology, not an opinion. Their brains have not finished developing yet. Unless you can prove that some 15 year olds magically develop their brains faster than others, then your fantasy that any of them can give meaningful consent is unfounded. Your contempt for child rape victims is fucking disgusting.
Once more, with feeling: please read the thread in its entirety before you decided your face has been slapped. I’ve made multiple statements which undermine any assertion that i’ve dismissed date rape as not being real.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.