It seems to me that the modern attitude about sex is that it is just something fun and pleasurable that people do together and that there is nothing inherently better or worse about normal relations vs. same-sex relations, or a single partner vs. multiple partners, or any of the various acts that are performed. In short, the sex act is no longer sacred. The relationship between sex and procreation is treated as if it just accidental and, thankfully, can be turned off and on at will via contraceptives and abortion.
If this is your view, or close to your view, please take a stab at answering these questions.
I don’t mean these questions to be rhetorical. My own answers to the questions are grounded in traditional morality and Christianity and are easy to guess. But I really don’t know what those who reject traditional morality have to say about these questions.
(1) Why is rape considered to be so heinous? If sex is just this pleasurable thing that people do, why is it so traumatic to be forced to do it? (The violence involved is secondary question and I think most women would feel just bad about being coerced if it did not involve being beaten.) If I held a gun to your head and forced you to eat a bowl of spinach, it seems comical instead of heinous. Why is sex so different? Because it is “invasion” of the body? Why is putting my finger in your mouth against your will nothing compared to putting my finger in your vagina? If you answer something to the effect of “because it so much more personal” then it begs the question – why is it felt to be so “personal?”
(2) What’s wrong with sex with kids? If the kids are willing, where’s the harm? And not only is it felt to be wrong, but is also heinously wrong, more so than rape. Please discuss that.
In response to your item number one, would you consider it a more serious assault if someone stuck their finger up your rectum than if they put it in your mouth?
I think the reason that I would have more trouble with a finger in the rectum is solely because I have been conditioned to give it a sexual association. That is, the rectum scenario becomes similar to the rape question.
But in trying to consider it rationally, really i think I’d rather have an unwanted and probably unwashed finger in my arse than in my mouth.
So, you’re arguing that sex is therefore some trivial act?
The act itself provides only so much pleasure and is easily overshadowed by the emotional context that goes with the act - for better or worse.
As a child, my idea of a well-rounded meal was a bag of candy bars. As a pubescent boy, my idea of an ideal mate was a woman that would have sex with me.
The thing is, children can make very stupid and/or ignorant decisions - ones that can deeply affect them later in life - and they need to be shielded from these particular situations - despite whether they are willing or not.
Here’s a question for you:
Would these things be heinous to you if you didn’t have your moral and religious background? Because you’re implying they would be trivial issues if it weren’t for your background.
That seems to be what she is implying. She seems genuinely baffled that people make a distinction between rape, pedophilia, and consenting relations between adults of the same sex, as if the only reason we should think something is wrong is because “God said so.”
Your begging the question. What is it about lack of consent that turns sexual intercourse into assault?
Again, begging the question. Why do we consider children to be “incapable” of giving informed consent to sex. (why informed? I’m not even sure what “informed” means in this context.)
I’m not attempting to. However, I grant that my own basis of condemnation of same-sex activity is very much linked to my reasons for condemning rape and paedophilia.
I going to try to limit my responses to those who actually attempt to debate the posed questions, but it looks like I need to clarify this some more first.
I am not implying anything in the OP. I am not being rhetorical. I am interested in your reasons for condemning rape and pedophilia because I do not know what they are. When I know what they are, I will probably be very critical of them. But when I do criticize them, I will do so in a straight-forward manner.
But I will also add that evasive posts make me suspicious that even though you make a “distinction between rape, pedophilia, and consenting relations” you only do so because of your cultural conditioning influenced by the traditional morality of my sort, but don’t actually have any consistent basis for making that distinction. But please feel free to correct me.
The same property that turns a boxing match into assault.
Basically, children are incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions to the same degree as an adult. Thus children can’t give consent to have sex for much the same reasons that they can’t drink alcohol or drive a car.
I fail to see how the three are in the same group. What common attribute could those three activities possibly share?
By definition, if it is unwanted physical contact, it is either assault or battery. I don’t see where you’re going with this.
For the same reason we consider children “incapable” of driving, consuming alcohol, or using tobacco products. It’s a collective judgement call that they lack the life experience neccesary to make meaningful decisions with potentially hazardous consequences, and that for their own good we should shield them from it until later on in their lives.
Is all your morality based upon the Bible? If so, could you to show me where in the Bible it says that pedophilia is bad? And for another slightly off topic exercise, I’d like you to find any passages that say that slavery is morally wrong.
No, not me. But the general consensus of the culture at large is that it is a trivial act – as long as it is conentual and between adults. (when it is not treated as trivial, the significance is taken to be subjective, not inherently in the act.) The questions are for those who hold this view.
A bad diet is unhealthy with consequences that are easy to see. Specifically what are we shielding them from regarding sex?
It is tough to answer. I believe that morality has an objective existence. This view is prior to my specific religious views. I think sex with children and rape are wrong a priori, that they are wrong in fact in the same way that the sky is blue and water wet. If you’re asking how I would feel about them if I did not believe in the objective existence of morality, I would have to say that in that case I would see no basis for objecting about anything except that it happens to disagree my whims. But I don’t place much emphasis on my own whims.
I was using “assault” in the common sense, not the legal sense.
But either way, I’m not making a black/white distinction here. Being forced to do anything against your will is going to be unpleasant. But being forced to engage in something sexual is generally considered to be one of the worst things that one could be forced to do, while if you’re not being forced it is one of the best things to do. Why should this be so?
But these things are physically dangerous or harmful? What is the problem with sex?
For question 2, I’d like to add the added assumption that we live in a world without STDs and in which contraception is perfect. I think most people believe that sex with kids is wrong even if there were no question of disease or pregnancy and that is the position I would like to see defended.
So you’re asking why we condemn rape if we don’t have traditional Christian morals to guide our lives?
Oddly enough, us heathens are still capable of possessing moral standards, even in the absence of a poorly-written, self-contradictory book of questionable factual reliability to govern our depraved lives.
I condemn rape because it is a violent and invasive physical assault of a victim. I condemn rape not because the good book tells me to, but because I have compassion for its victims, who suffer immediate physical harm and lasting psychological damage. Their pain is real to me and exists regardless of my lack of religious belief. I condemn rape because I would not like to be raped.
Again, why the hell would I need traditional religious beliefs before I consider children to be incapable of consent? I know children cannot give proper consent to important decisions such as sexual relationships because (i) I am able to read and make observations about the mental abilities of children; and (ii) I was a child once upon a time and know that at that age I could not make proper decisions to enter sexual relations. So why do I condemn paedophilia? Centuries of observation has clearly demonstrated that the development and adult lives of young children can be severely damaged by early sexual relations. And again, I feel compassion for its victims, who suffer immediate and often lasting harm into their adult years. I condemn paedophilia because I would not want to suffer when I was a child, or for my children to suffer in the future.
I don’t believe you. How can an adult be genuinely puzzled why others–even without religion–find rape and paedophilia to be abhorrent? Sorry, but we don’t need fanciful beliefs to possess moral standards and feel human compassion for others.
Why don’t you address our concern? The implication, as already pointed out, is that you only condemn rape and paedophilia because your religion compels you to. I hope that’s not true; why do you find these acts to be abhorrent?
I would hope that you have reasons other than religion to condemn these crimes. I would also hope that then you’d look into your heart and find that in the absence of belief in ancient texts the reasons to condemn same-sex relationships simply do not exist, but that may be asking too much.
No way! I had three bowls of ice cream today, and I feel and look fine. Of course, I realize that if I continue on with this behavior that I’m going to have some terrible consequences. Likewise…
…engaging in sex with a child - if not traumatizing the child - will probably promote a truly trivial attitude toward sex. The consequence of this is irresponsible behavior with various negative impacts on society - among other things.
Losing one’s virginity is also no small thing, and I think requires a certain amount of understanding and maturity to keep from being seen as a very, very scary situation.
Finally - yay, another anecdote! - my idea of sex until I actually got my hands on some adult material was terribly naive: giggling and rustling around, underneath some blankets, with a person of the opposite sex. Funny story about that, but the point here is that a child may agree to have sex while thinking it is something completely different than what it really is; actually, there are probably a number of teenagers and adults that do the same thing.
I don’t mean to harass, but doesn’t this mean you have no reason? Isn’t it just your whim?
Why not? I’m sure you’re quite reasonable in your dealings with others. And, at the very least, I’d bet that you can see the consequences of following your whims and would restrict yourself to civil behavior.
This is how I work, and I found it works fine - and sometimes better.
I’m not sure that this is entirely accurate. I don’t think it’s true that sex is seen as trivial so universally. In particular, there is a vast amount of grey area between hardcore Christian views and the complete reverse. Only a couple of people I know well enough to discuss this sort of thing with are religious, but all of them consider sex to be at the very least non-trivial. There are certainly people who do consider it to be just for fun, but I’m inclined to believe that such people are in the minority, at least amongst people I know.
That being said, my answers to both of your questions are kind of obvious. However, it’s worth bearing in mind that even if I consider sex to be trivial (I don’t - I’m being hypothetical here), that doesn’t necessarily mean I can’t respect the rights of others to consider it sacred. In the case of children, rightly or wrongly society thinks of them as being unable to make up their mind. We don’t want some kid having lots of sex, then growing up and deciding that they consider sex to be a big deal after all and regretting their childhood as a result. I think there are a few problems with this, not the least of which is a couple of double-standards, but there’s no need to get into that here.
Of course, I realize that if I continue on with this behavior that I’m going to have some terrible consequences. Likewise…