Notes from a Childfree Couple

The BBQ Pit
41

Not meaning to hijack the thread to a philosophical discussion which is off-topic, but I couldn’t let this pass by, and I’m surprised that it hasn’t been addressed thus far.

I’m sorry, but no. The children are not mistakes, the situations in which they are being raised are. The situations can be changed, but there is no one whose existence is an error.

It is fine to advocate on behalf of yourself and others like you who have chosen not to have children. I firmly agree that it is a choice which deserves as much respect as its opposite and committed CFer’s ought not be on the receiving end of insults or endless “oh one day…” commentary from those around them.

But having made that choice, for whatever reason, does not give you the liberty to comment on the appropriateness of anyone’s existence, or the parenting styles and choices of those around you who do have children.

You get what you give; if you want your childfree choice to be respected, you have to give respect – to those who haven’t made that choice, and to their children who, in their childhood years, have nothing to do with the argument either way.

42

I have three children, another on the way. I do not assume other people enjoy the presence of my children. I am always surprised and gratified to hear when somebody actually likes having them around. My own parents don’t seem to like them very much. And that’s okay. I don’t inflict my kids on people very much. I try not to.

Unfortunately, I have poor access to paid babysitters. Free ones are even harder to come by. So even if I am invited to a gathering where children aren’t especially welcome, it’s unlikely I can attend. It’s nothing personal, it’s just practicality: no babysitter equals no get-togethers where kids aren’t welcome.

I’m delighted to be around people who talk about things other than kids, potty training, pregnancy, and so on. But I’m afraid most days I have little else to talk about, myself. I don’t have a job outside the house. I homeschool my children. I…watch TV, sure. And read books. But most people don’t want to discuss TV, and they haven’t read the same books I have. It’s like living in a different culture. Nobody’s fault, but still a fact of life.

43

Back in med school, I worked with a pediatrician who was a very successful and well-respected community doc for 35 years before he retired. He still did a few clinics a week at the university clinic, because he liked teaching.

He said that parents needed to make two things absolutely non-negotiable with kids. The first is that seat belts will be worn at all times when in the car. The second is that the parents will have time alone, every single day, without the kids around.

The obvious way to do this, he said, is for the parents to devote the time between the kid’s bedtime and their own bedtime to one another. But what about the kids who get up after they’ve been put in bed, or who want to sleep in their parent’s bed? He said that you simply take the kid back to bed, and explain to him that the next time he gets up, you’ll lock him in his room. The next time he gets up, do just that, taking his doorknob off and turning it around if you have to.

The kid will scream and wail, he said, but then he’ll go to sleep. The next night he’ll do the same thing, but he’ll go to sleep sooner. Eventually, the screaming and wailing will stop. He said that parents had to trust their ability to tell when something was really wrong; otherwise, they should just let the kid scream.

This was a man who considered smoking in the house with a kid to be child abuse. He admitted that it sounded cold, but that was how strongly he felt about parents having the opportunity to focus on each other. He had seen too many families torn apart because the central bond–the love between the man and woman that started it all off–just faded away.

My point is that even the strongest relationships can’t go very far on auto-pilot. Whether it’s your kids, or your job, or whatever consumes most of your energy, if you don’t regularly focus on who you are as a person and who you are as a couple, you can’t help but lose sight of those things.

Dr. J

44

  1. You’re right, you don’t have to bond with the children at the cost of losing the bond that you already have with the parents; but hey, your choice.

  2. The kids may become interesting to you at 10 and 11, but they will probably not be interested with you unless you had already made a bond with them early on. Don’t expect them to turn on a dime and start conversing with you just because you find them interesting at this point. At this pre-adolecent stage, they are just beginning to try to break away from the constant supervision of their parents. They might say hello and goodbye, but they probably have other things that they will find more important to do.

  3. Don’t give the parents the chance to assume. Tell them outright that the kids are not invited. They won’t be offended when you tell them no kids allowed. They may not come around anymore, but I’m sure there’s no grudge involved.

  4. Concur.

  5. The same would be expected from childless couples…no excessive slide shows of month-long vacations in Europe, Bar-hopping stories, watching that great R-rated blockbuster movie and great bed&breakfast weekends in Napa Valley. Our eyes can glaze over too.

  6. You won’t have anyone to tell this to eventually except other childless couples. You’re right again in saying that you are not in the same place as we are. We’ll check back in 18 or more years after they all leave. That is if we remember you at all.
    This is not a direct attack on you featherlou, these are some of our responses that we’ve already expressed with other childless couples (including some older relatives) before your thread.

45

Wow, Yeticus Rex, that’s interesting, because, like I said in a previous thread, I agree with featherlou 100%, even though I do have a child.

But, I can’t agree with you on 1, 2, 5 or 6. Especially that snide remark in 6.

Maybe I was right in my previous post. It’s the kid-centric vs the non-kid-centric, insted of the kid-free vs the kidded.

46

Lezlers , I couldn’t agree with you more.

I love children and I hope to have two to three of my own someday, but as I’m in a part of my training that limits my opportunities to meet and find the future Mr. Clipper, let alone breed, I’m content with putting these dreams off for a bit. It doesn’t help, however, when my married or friends with children treat me like I’m an outsider to some type of special club that they are all members of. Telling me how happy they are and how I need to hurry up and marry/have children, so I can understand what “true happiness” is about just makes my ovaries even more worried about their shriveling up before I get a chance to do so.

My biggest pet peeve though with parents of small children is when they quiz me about when I am going to start a “family” or that I’m missing out by not having a “family.” I usually have to tell them that having children is not the only way to have a family and that unlike some singles I’m not a single entity devoid of having any human contact. I’m very close with my parents, my sibling, and aunts/uncles/cousins – these are the people that love me and whom I enjoy spending time with. It may not be the type of family they first think of but I’m pretty damn happy with them right now.

47

I always think how desperately awful it must be for infertile couples to constantly have the “when are you going to start a family” remarks. Maybe - if you know them well enough - “any plans to start a family?” is OK, but not WHEN?!!!

The same goes for couples that have suffered bereavement, or miscarriage. Do we counsel them how much they are “missing out” or how their lives “won’t be complete”? I hope not.

48

No, YR, it’s not a direct attack on featherlou, it’s an indirect (and not very subtle, I must say) attack on anyone and everyone who has the nerve to not think your children are the most fabulous, fascinating things to ever walk the Earth.

I don’t ask that any of my friends bond with my husband. Yes, he’s a vital part of my life, but they don’t have to be in love with him too. They don’t even have to be his friend. It’s quite enough that they be pleasant to him and continue to be my friend. Most of my friendships date back to the pre-DrJ days, and they nourish and connect an important part of me that has nothing to do with him.

If parents are willing to let something like that die because I don’t feel the same way they do about a child they carried, birthed, and are raising, I’m afraid that’s their loss. I hate to think that 20 years from now, my friends with kids will look around at their empty nests and wonder what happened to all the people who cared about them as people, not as parents, then realize that they cut their ties with us because we weren’t ga-ga over their kids.

And yes, lor I think you were spot-on. This isn’t really a child-free issue. It’s not even an issue of being in different places in your lives, because we’re all in different places career-wise, money-wise, education-wise, love life-wise, or in some other way. It’s a matter of disagreeing on where the focus should be.

49

istara, when I announced my engagement, EVERYBODY started asking me when we were going to have kids.

First off, it’s none of their business. Second, we certainly weren’t for a couple of years at least, I have school to finish. Third, I don’t even know if I CAN!!! And adoption can take YEARS, and it costs mucho bucks, so I don’t know if I’m ever going to have kids or not.

The point is moot since he dumped me in December, but people seem to assume married=breeder. Well, it doesn’t!

50

Well, since I’m only a teenager now, I can well recall these kinds of situations from when I was younger. Sometimes, I got dragged along to things I didn’t want to go to. I never expected adults to entertain me or even really talk to me, since we had nothing to discuss and I was tired of being asked what grade I was in. I was anxious to get away and make my own fun - I certainly don’t remember being slighted by it. Besides, once the kids get older, they will probably be accompanying their parents less and less anyway since they have their own social engagements. As for your story about your grandmother, I would like to point out that as your grandmother, a close blood relation, she might be expected to have more decorum. But the parents’ friends aren’t.

51

Preach it, clipper. I just recentely broke up with my b/f (we had plans for marriage, ect.) and I just went out with some friends to a bar last night (yes, I believe I am the only single person in my group of friends at this point- I really need to make some new friends) and it was a “lets get lezlers hooked up!” party. It was disgusting. Every guy that walked in, my friends would look at me at whisper “you like him? You think he’s cute?” For cryin’ out loud people! I’m not obsessed with finding another mate, why are you all obsessed with finding me one? Just because marraige is enough to keep you all blissfully happy, doesn’t mean it’s enough for me. I need other things besides a warm body next to me at night. :rolleyes:

I’m beginning law school in Sept. and won’t have much time for a social life for the next 4 years anyhow (my specific program will be 4 years) so #1. It’s twice as frustrating because I know i’m that much further from even beginning to think about motherhood and #2. I’m glad also, because some of the pressure to “find a mate” will be lifted because hey, who the hell has the time for that shit in school? I was just talking to a guy starting his 3rd year at my future school and he just took his first Saturday off. 3 years, one Saturday. Not worrying about lack of a social life. :wink:

sorry for the hijack.

Also, YeticusRex, I wasn’t aware that parents weren’t allowed to watch R rated movies. Surely you can escape from the little monkeys for two whole hours can’t you?? Sounds like you and the S.O. definately need to take some time out for eachother. I’ll hook you up with one of those beds and breakfasts (see my location) :wink:

52

** featherlou + pkbites ** = much rockage

53

As a very new first time parent – 19 days and counting, I really appreciate it if people make their opinions about children clear. I’m still learning how my new input/output device works as a stand alone unit, let alone trying to figure out how to integrate it with the network. It seems the help file got lost during delivery (damn FedX).

I am never sure if friends want to hold Bub or not or even if they want her around. As the first of my social group to have a baby many of my friends are still learning the new parameters also which does make it harder. Being upfront really helps – a friend who visited yesterday was happy to look but only from the other side of the room ‘in case she throws up’. Which is cool, as long as we all know were we stand then compromises can be made.

pkbites great advice, have noted it down and shown Leechboy, thanks!

54

After spending today at a barbecue with seven children under the age of four, I am completely sure that lorinada said, it is indeed a “cult of the child” vs “normal human being” issue. I spent the day around these kids, they were mostly well-behaved, the parents looked after them and didn’t let any of them get too wild, adult conversations were had as well as the baby-related ones, and it was no problem at all. The problems I have being around children/parents is when they do get that idea that their children are the be-all, end-all of existence, and everyone else must worship at the altar of their tiny god.

Yeticus Rex, I don’t know why you felt the need to post what you did. Does my not wanting to have kids and not being terribly interested in other people’s children offend you in some way?

55

You’re telling me once you have kids you can’t do vacations in europe, or bar hopping, watch any R rated movies, or have bed & breakfast weekends?

Seriously, you need to get out more.

56

Those green, green eyes of jealousy.

::ducks and runs::

57

One reason that me and other child-free people may be hesistant about inviting children to certain gatherings is that often our houses aren’t childproofed. It hasn’t been much of an issue yet as many of my friends children are still in the being held or in their carrier stage but I never have my little cousins visit me at my apartment. There are just too many ways that they could get hurt or hurt my stuff to risk it. Including them in activities usually means finding a child-friendly location which can be difficult to do sometimes.

For me personally as more of my friends become parents, I hope that I can strike a balance between adult-only and adults-and-children social gatherings.

58

clipper,

One of the reasons I was hesitant to take my children to the homes of childfree people - even when they were invited - was the lack of childproofing.

When I was childless, I left my meds all over the bathroom. I didn’t lock the nasty harsh cleaners up. I didn’t gate my stairs.

Imagine my surprise when a friend of my husband showed up to play games, brought her “adorable” two year old, who she didn’t watch (because she was playing games) and then got mad at me when the child needed her stomach pumped for getting into my bathroom and getting into the meds. Why would I leave my medication all over the bathroom with a child in the house (because there aren’t supposed to be children in the house! I didn’t know the kid was coming and I didn’t know I was supposed to be the babysitter! And if I had know either of these things, I would have said no!)

With this experience in my background, my darling little angels only go where invited - and even if invited - would only go if both parents were going or the house in question held children of a simliar age or I knew to be relatively safe. They are preschoolers now, so we are beginning to take them to places we wouldn’t have a year ago.
BTW, I don’t like to hold peoples kids either. About two minutes. And I have two. And I don’t like to hear kid stories - except the really good ones (there are really good ones!), but the majority of them are boring - I watched my own kids learn to walk, been there done that, isn’t that interesting to hear about.

59

The child-proofing thing is a very real, valid issue. My life, and thus my home, are just not very child-friendly. Having someone bring a kid over is a chore, even when every adult in the place is being vigilant. Toddlers, especially. They’re just so damned fast a lot of the time. They can be in real danger before you have time to say “Don’t pound your fists on that glass-topped table,” or “Quit licking that electrical outlet,” or “The dog doesn’t like having fingers shoved up her nose.”

And Dangerosa, you’re the kind of parent I wish were more common.

60

Am I alone in sensing a backlash to the ‘children should be seen and not heard’ era ? I haven’t got kids, and to tell the truth I’m unlikely to ever have them, at the risk of sounding like a cross between Hitler and Cruela de Ville, the sound of children’s laughter chills my bones. But my sisters 2 kids have centre stage where ever they are, they constantly interrupt adults in conversation, and everyone just seems to accept and embrace this. I’m not suggesting a return to the dark ages, but kids should be taught that they are not always the most fascinating person in the room, I mean they’ll learn it eventually anyway.