You have made your decision to have children, and we have made ours not to have children. Part of the reason we decided not to have children is because we just aren’t interested in them. I like to think that we are being very considerate of your lifestyle choice, and I think there is some room for you to be more considerate of ours. Here are a couple of guidelines for you:
When you call ME on the telephone, have the conversation with ME, not with your 18-month old. Wait to call until he is napping, perhaps. I do understand that you have to look after him, but can you picture how boring it is for me to sit holding the phone to my ear while you have a five-minute conversation with him about how he has to turn the television off NOW?
Try to tell me what’s going on as we talk on the phone. When I ask you a question, and instead of acknowledging it, I hear you talking to the kid, I don’t always know who you’re talking to, me or the kid; it makes conversations with you quite confusing. And it’s annoying for me to have a conversation with someone who’s only about halfway into it.
Keep him away from the phone, please. That earsplitting shriek of his is painful to you while holding him, and guess what? It’s painful over the phone, too! Sure, put your three year old on the phone to say hi. Then get her off. She’s not a very good conversationalist yet, you know. And never, ever let any kid under about 11 or so answer the phone. It is almost physically painful to try to have a conversation with a child who is too young to answer the phone, and it is also dangerous for the children.
When we are actually talking, do you think we could talk about something other than your kid? Sure, update me on his progress, on the latest thing he’s started doing, etc, then move on. Talking for hours about your kid must be reserved for other people with children; I will never tell you how boring this is for me, because I was raised better than that, but trust me; IT’S BORING!!! Save it for people who have their own children to tell you about in return. Please. I’m begging you.
Talking to me about other people’s children (people I don’t even know) is beyond boring. It’s somewhere in the realm of “I can’t believe she’s telling me this stuff. Have I ever in the past misled her to think that I want to hear about every child she knows?!?”
No, your kids can’t come to everything. Sometimes we have adult only parties, where there is smoking, drinking, swearing, and adult conversation. Your children are not only not welcome, but you look like a bad mother by trying to push them into this situation. We have lots of child-friendly get-togethers, where all children are welcome. Once the hostess has told you point-blank, well in advance, that children are not welcome at this party, your insistence on bringing them is very inappropriate.
At the child-friendly gatherings that we have, please look after your children yourself. Walking in the door, plopping your kid down on the floor, and plopping your butt on the couch, never to move again, even as your child starts climbing things, eating things, and generally being a pest is a no-no. Sure, there are other adults here, and I won’t let your child get hurt if I see him and can reach him in time, but I’m not experienced with looking after a toddler, and I can’t anticipate how much trouble he can get into in such a short time. That is YOUR job, even when there are other adults around.
I’m childless by choice; if you think about it at all, you will realize that it is because I’m really not interested in children. Therefore, I’m not going to be thrilled to death when you hand your baby over to me. Sure, I’ll hold him for a couple of minutes, then you’re getting him back. And comments about how natural I look holding the baby, and doesn’t it just make me want to have one are not appreciated. It makes me uncomfortable.
Other people at the gatherings with children present; I know you love children, and want to play with them. Go ahead, knock yourselves out, but do you think you could have a little bit of adult conversation before we have to go home again? Instead of just staring at the kids and saying over and over how incredibly cute they are? You don’t see us that often, and we would like to hear how things are going with you, and such. I’m not asking for lots of your time; just a few sentences would be enough.
Please, enough with the martyr act. You chose to have children, you chose to go back to work, you chose to buy a house and brand new minivan, you choose to give the kids thousands of dollars worth of clothes and toys; no one forces you to make the decisions you’ve made, and I’m getting real tired of hearing about how busy and tired and short of money you are. Deal, for heaven’s sake. Or, better yet, start making some better choices. Maybe you don’t need the timeshare in Fairmont this year.
As a CBC woman, I would like to spend time with my friends and sisters without the kids along sometimes. I know men don’t always drag their kids along, so why do the women have to do this? Can we have a girl’s night out or a shopping trip once in awhile without the kids? Please?
Aside from one or two points you made, I don’t see what your choosing to not have a kid has to do with any of these gripes. They are all legitimate. In fact, every one of your points are about common courtesy that should be extended to all people, childless or not. Are you assuming that just because someone has a kid of their own that they actually don’t mind most of these things? Think again.
I agree with most everything you said, but you also seem to have a bit of an “I’m childless leave me alone” complex, or feel that you’re entitled to certain behavior because you don’t have kids. It doesn’t sound like anyone at all is questioning your decision or putting pressure on you in any way (except in point number 8), and that all this other stuff has nothing to do with you not having a kid. It has to do with busy parents trying to juggle lots of things and losing track of a little politeness.
Sounds like you need to find some single friends. A lot of people with kids can’t comprehend that their children aren’t as interesting or entertaining to other people as they are to them.
Also, your friend sounds to lack common courtesy to begin with and her having a kid just makes it worse. If you can’t stand to be around her kids, then don’t be around her.
I think maybe, just maybe, most of that rant pertains to one specific friend who repeats steps 1-8 often enough to make ms. lou wanna scream. It’s those few idiots who make the rest of us spawn-squirting breeders look bad! (I’m joking.)
True though, people’s lives do become about their kids while the kids are still young, so (due to a new-found lack of social life) they may not have much else to talk about. ‘Sex? Hell, we haven’t had that since Jimmy was born! Well, there was that once when the hubby almost got it in, and Jimmy decided he wanted a glass of water’ (I was one of those kids who slept in Mommy and Daddy’s bed 6 out of 7 nights per week. Poor folks. ) SO they have the option to talk about work, or kids.
Sensible, solid, well worded rant. -3 for lack of 4-letter words. 6.5 overall.
Your feelings are valid, featherlou, but I think it’s time to read the writing on the wall. Your friends with kids are not anymore interested in pursuing a friendship that isn’t child centered than you are in pursuing one that is.
Your post would rightfully be ill-received by the actual person to whom it is directed (although that person really shouldn’t be bringing kids to no-kids events), but I can see both sides.
You know, I honestly don’t know if people with children mind these things or not. I’ve just noticed this kind of behaviour from my friends and sisters who’ve had kids, and, yes, their common courtesy seems to have gotten a little forgotten along the way. I think if you have kids of your own, you may be more forgiving of other people who are less than courteous because of their own kids.
**
I do think I’m entitled to certain behaviour because I don’t have kids; it’s a two-way street, in my mind. I make allowances for them (like being understanding if they’re late or can’t make it for a date), and I think they should do some of the same for me (like not talking about their kids excessively). I don’t want to write off the friendship because of these things; I just need to rant a little when they start bugging me too much.
(Venoma, there were lots of four-letter words in my rant. Just no swearing. :D)
I agree with what others have said. It sounds as if it would be hard to find middle ground with these particular friends. They seem to be heavity invested in their children and unable to separate them from aspects of their life that include you. It might be partly lack of courtesy, or partly just the way life gets when you have children. As others have said, I think you’d be happier pursuing friendships with other people who don’t have children.
As for #8, your complete lack of interest in children may not in fact be discernable to any and all from your childfree lifestyle. I know many people who never wish to have kids of their own, but are still very interested in the children of their siblings and friends. I’ve often heard them make jokes like “They’re so great when you can hand them back!” I wouldn’t be so hard on your friends or sister for not realizing that your childfree choice also means you want to be free from ever dealing with anyone else’s children. One doesn’t necessarily follow from the other.
As another who is CBC, I agree with much of the OP. My sister’s baby shower was Sunday, and everything revolved around the two babies there. It was nearly impossible to hold a real adult conversation that wasn’t interrupted. I was bored to tears, and this was my family. I normally enjoy being around my family.
I like my nephew. He’s 14 months old and cute as a button, but I don’t care for kids. A few minutes with him, maybe an hour tops, and I’m ready to go back to doing something interesting.
My dad once called me selfish for not having children. He’s normally not so mean, so I resisted the urge to say, “At least I don’t want someone else to have kids so I can have more grandchildren.” Instead I just calmly explained that I didn’t like kids, and that if more people actually thought before they had their children, we wouldn’t have so many unwanted children in this world. He’s never brought it up again, so perhaps my mom got on to him later.
Now I just have to deal with my sister-in-law asking me if I want one every time I hold her son. She’s mostly joking, though, so I don’t take it seriously.
I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes…
Featherlou’s #10 hits pretty close to the mark for me. I can’t stand it when my friends who have kids try to make me feel guilty for indulging in things that are now off-limits for them because of the choice they made to have children.
Friends with kids always ask me “What are you doing this weekend?” When I tell them that I’m planning on riding my quad all weekend or that I’m hanging out drinking with my old college buddies for the weekend, I get this massive guilt trip, as if I’m ruining things by enjoying myself instead of having to give up those indulgences by making the choice to have a kid. Worse yet, some of these friends ask if they can hang out with me while they dump their kid on their spouse for the entire weekend, and then become a buzz kill when they feel guilty for having as much fun as they are.
By the way, this behavior isn’t confined to folks with kids. I see the same behavior coming from people who just got married or people who just bought a house. Sometimes I wonder if they fail to take into consideration the sacrifices they need to make in order to be married or in order to make the monetary investment in keeping up mortgage payments. No, dear friend, being married doesn’t mean that you get to spend every weekend with your single friends doing the same types of things you did when you were single. You have to invest time and TLC in the relationship you committed to. And buying a house means sacrifices. If you take home $4,000 a month and $1,500 of that needs to go to your mortgage, that’s a significant commitment and it means that you can’t go out and splurge on the toys and cool stuff that many of your friends might be able to buy. And if you have kids, they need both a monetary and time investment as well.
My wife and I are childless by surgery. She had severe ovarian cysts about seven years ago, and had to have a complete hysterectomy. We do not wish to adopt.
We RPG with several friends, some of whom have children. The wife of one of these friends had the gall to tell us that, because fewer couples were having children these days, when we are all old, there won’t be enough people paying into social security to support us. Therefore we are being selfish to remain childless. This same persons children are ill-behaved, screaming little monsters. The only reason that my wife and I weren’t totaly offended by this woman is that she is widely regarded as not being the brightest candle on the cake, if ya catch my drift.
Ok, and I don’t want to seem like I’m getting on your case, 'cause I’m not, but still it seems like you’re expecting certain behavior from friends because you don’t have/want kids, when that has nothing to do with it (IMO). You understand if they are late, not just because they have kids, but because they have a valid reason (I suspect that you would be understanding of anyone who was late if the reason was valid… dealing with one’s child happens to be one of those reasons). You wouldn’t berate one person for being late and not another just because one of them had kids would you?
Likewise, excessive talking about one’s kids (or anything, for that matter) gets old quick for most people. Some people don’t mind, others do. If someone can’t come up with any conversation more exciting than, “Timmy pooped his pants again today,” then that’s about his/her decision to not focus on anything but his/her kids, not about you not wanting to have kids.
Well, Heh, If it wasn’t for us breaders having kids, who would abuse you thirty years from now when you are in the nursing home.
Strictly speaking, though, if you don’t want to have kids and don’t have them, then you are doing the absolutly best move you can make. Children aren’t pets or are they disposable. Choosing not to have them, if you don’t want them is absolutely responsable.
Item - Most of the behaviors the OP is discussing are annoying to most everyone.
Item - Most of the OP’s complaints are about discourtesy, and IMO have little to nothing to do with the fact of being CBC.
Item - Parents are obsessed with their kids. They have to be, for the kids well-being. It’s nature in action, so get used to it.
Item - People are thoughtless.
Item - In this culture (and most others), women are the primary care-givers, and will frequently have bambinos in-tow.
Conclusion: It’s time to educate your friends on courteous behavior.
Alternate Conclusion: It’s time to get some new friends.
Corollary to Alternate Conclusion: It’s not necessary to dump old friends when adding new friends.
I’m not dumping on you, featherlou, but the solution to your problem isn’t in bemoaning the attitudes of parents, or smacking sense into the inconsiderate, but in changing the numbers and kinds of people with whom you interact. CBC is perfectly valid, and I appreciate those who are, but the Bad Fact is that those who are CBC are in a society geared towards parents, and will have to adjust or reconcile to that.
There is a difference between a baby shower revolving around the baby to be born and babies present at the shower. That the babies were there was completely legitimate, I’m sure. That they were the total subject of the gathering, not so much. After all, a baby shower is much more about the mother-to-be than the child-to-be or the children-in-existance. If the children were the center of attention to the point that the guest of honor was ignored, then there was a problem with the baby shower revolving around those babies, wasn’t there. :rolleyes:
Also childless by choice. For the most part, I find my best friend’s son to be hell on wheels, but so do his parents (he’s 18 months, so right now discipline is pretty much limited to a very stern “NO” applied by any adult within range. He even listens to his Aunt SisterCoyote when she says so). So they take effort to disinclude him when his inclusion would cause disruption for the rest of the gathering, and include him otherwise. For example, we spent most of last weekend FRPGing with our long-time GM who now lives in Philly but will be here for the next month. He had not yet met NephewCoyote. So, a compromise was achieved. Saturday NephewCoyote came along, and was doted over and the center of attention just to keep him from destroying stuff. Sunday he went to visit his (blood) aunt, while we adults did adult things.
It’s not so hard. Yes, a child should be one of the most important things to his/her parents. However, that doesn’t mean that the parents should neglect friends - with or without children of their own - while raising squibs.
And any parent who always forces the other parent to be childcare should be shot, IMNSHO. FriendCoyote and Spouse of FriendCoyote swap off the childcare duties on a fairly regular basis, so I get time with her sans NephewCoyote, and he gets time with his friends the same way.
FWIW, I trained my friends with children (and new spouses they needed to be constant verbal contact with) to quit doing #1 and #2 on your list in a similar way that I trained the ones who insisted on having Call Waiting. If we’re on the phone, then we’re talking to each other, no one else. If something or someone else is more important than our conversation, then I’m hanging up now and we can talk later when you don’t have so many other things to do.
To be blunt, a baby shower is not about babies; it’s about fetuses. The only baby that a given baby shower revolves around is the one that hasn’t been born yet. That’s what a baby shower is for: to give a pregnant woman what she needs before the baby arrives.
As far as I can tell, the objection was that the conversation revolved around the already born babies, rather than the new mother, the gifts, and the friendships between the women involved.
Featherlou, I have a kid, and quite a bit on that list would/does annoy me too. I have one acquaintance who sometimes just won’t shut up about her kids…I now know what they all weighed at every stage of their development. Yep, it’s dull.
OTOH, I can understand it, because the fact is that when you have young kids, fully 80% of your brain turns into a kid-maintenance machine. It’s sometimes difficult to realize that you’ve turned into a raging bore when your kid really is almost all you think about, and the color and texture of poop has become an actual topic of interest between you and your spouse.
If your friend won’t take any hints about how thoughtless she’s being, and you don’t think being direct would help (personally, I like direct)–well, maybe you should ease off on the friendship for a couple years. Or something. You could try outmanuevering her by calling her at baby’s naptime, or recommending a friend’s kid as babysitter who you know will be available.
And now, my kid is standing here saying ‘poo-poo,’ so I have to go change her.
) SO they have the option to talk about work, or kids.