Last night I was at a gathering, you had two recent parents, and the rest didn’t have children.
one set, talked about their new baby, continued to gab about the dumpling…they would take any conversation and immediatelly turn it towards their child or child raising. COnsequently, they left early, and frankly most were glad they left, since they became exhausting. I’ve known this couple for a while, both professionals, very well read, but since having their kid, their brains have turned to mush.
Second set, introduced us to their child, told the stories, but then, kept the baby on their laps, paid attention to it, but engaged the group. Joined in every conversation, were versed on latest topics, etc, etc, etc…the baby was part of the group, but was not the center of attention. They stayed a long time, were a joy to entertain, and today they told me what a wonderful time they had.
For most new parents, the addition of that new life is the most exciting in their lives that ever was or ever can be. Some people want to share that excitement with friends, without taking into account the social situation. It wouldn’t be different if someone won the lottery, say, and had suddenly come into a whopping great fortune: I’ll be every conversation would turn around to that one topic, because it’s so overwhelmingly important and life-changing.
Having said that, I’ll move the thread to IMHO from GENERAL QUESTIONS.
Try to forgive your friends. If they have waited to have children as many professionals do these days then they are simply “in love” with their baby right now. It’s easy to do, fall in love with that first child. The two couples may have different styles about many things, not just their attitude toward their child. If the second couple happen to be more relaxed and laid-back in their general attitude then naturally they will have a more laid-back parenting style.
Sailor you would have that attitude…you don’t have kids, and perhaps shouldn’t. I suppose that you believe adults should halt all grown-up social activity once children come into the picture. No wonder people become lonely, stressed out and bored with family life when they have friends such as you. The best possible solution is to incorporate your family situation into your social situation. Children shouldn’t be dragged to every gathering, nor should they always be excluded. Families don’t stay close very long with childless friends who resent their children. You know there are a large number of social pursuits that benefit from the inclusion of children. Picnics, trips to the beach, ball games, Christmas gatherings, Halloween parties, bicycle rides, walks in the park are all fun and pleasurable experiences when shared with children. Children will learn to conduct themselves appropriately during mixed social gatherings the more often they are included.
It’s hard enough raising children without having to feel that you must “give up” your old life completely. There is no reason why friends cannot continue to socialize once things start to change from “singles” and “couples” into “families”.
I believe kids have their place and their time. They are your kids, not mine. To me they are not cute, they are just a nuisance. You donot take kids to work because they get in the way of the object at hand which is ggetting something productive done. If I am invited to a friend’s home I am very annoyed that the kids keep interrupting the flow of adult conversation and socializing. I would rather not be invited if my conversation with you will be continually interrupted by your three year old. In fact, I decline some of my cousin’s invitations for that very reason.
Having said that I will say that, of course, if the occassion is something like a children’s party or picnic, then that is the object of the gathering and children, not only belong there but are the object of the gathering. But when adults are the objects of the gathering, then children should be seen and not heard.
And contrary to what many new parents think, No, your baby is not interesting to me or cute. I think it is ugly and boring. Please do not embarrass me by forcing me to pretend otherwise.
Obviously, crying babies and restless toddlers should be comforted/amused away from the guests. And certain situations (R rated movies and restaurants with fine linens and good silver come to mind) are inappropriate for children. But you cannot raise a child apart from society and then expect him to function appropriately in it. Social customs are subtle and complex. A quietly observant child can (and should) learn a great deal about manners and social graces from the adults around him.
sailor,You are certainly welcome to your opinion concerning the ugliness and irritating nature of my children and, were you an actual aquaintance of mine you would probably receive few invitations. But it seems to me that anyone who limits his chosen social interactions with such a discrete group of people must lead a very lonely life.
Between you and me and the lamppost, robin, I’ve always found it difficult to read a sailor post without picturing an old toothless guy sitting in a porch rocker, shaking his fist at passing automobiles.
I think the best social situations have things that appeal to both the kids and the grown-ups. While I like to incorporate my kids in many social situations, I am a big fan of the separate kids’ table. And they simply may not be interested in the adult conversation or activities, the same way I may not really want to play their games or watch their videos. So I like to have things available for the kids to do, either in their rooms, in the basement, or outside, while the adults can talk, play games, or whatever in the living room, on the deck, etc. If some adult wants to interact with the kids, they are free to do so. And if a kid wants to hang out with the adults, fine (as long as we aren’t discussing something we don’t feel is age appropriate.) But IMO a little kid should not be allowed to dominate the entire situation. I don’t feel I’m a bad person for wanting to engage in mature conversations, instead of junior’s boo-boo. And parents like the first you describe probably wouldn’t get too many more invites from me until their little dearie had gotten a little older and they got over the initial novelty and regained their ability to talk about other things.
her’s another group of p’s. How bout those who bring their kid over, and fail to watch whether they are trashing your house? Climbing on your furniture with shoes on, carrying messy food through the house, annoying your pets, etc. They, also, do not get re-invitations from me.
One previous post mentioned restaurants with fine silver and tablecloths as inappropriate places for children.
There is something to be said for this. However, children need to have opportunities to practice their best manners so they can be at home in such settings. Build up to it, obviously, but it is indeed possible to take children into a good restaurant and have a good time.
One anniversary our babysitter fell thru at the last moment and we had to take our children (age at the time six and eight). Both dressed in their best clothes, a very nice restaurant, could have been disastrous.
It was wonderful. Both children had a good time, acted quietly and appropriately, and my wife and I enjoyed the evening as well. We got a few dirty looks from some other guests, which we blandly ignored, and the waiter was very gracious and welcoming.
It can work.
On the other hand, I am someone who is absolutely shameless about bragging about his children (can you tell?).
In fact I made a comment to my dentist not long ago. He charges me so much I told him the prospect of losing my teeth and hanging on to my money didn’t seem so bad to me. But for now I still have all my teeth and the dentist has a lot of my money
Your other assumptions are also way off the mark, but you did make me smile.
As for not receiving invitations to homes with spoiled kids, I wish it were true always because I sometimes find it awkward do decline such invitations. Being polite I do not want to tell them how I feel about their spoiled children.
>> it seems to me that anyone who limits his chosen social interactions with such a discrete group of people must lead a very lonely life
You gotta be kidding! You think everybody in the world is like you? I got news for you. There are many people who have other interests in the world besides your children (they are just too polite to tell you). I have a ton of friends who do not have young children or who, if they have them, do not believe they are the sole topic of interest.
When I was a kid my parents made it clear that if I wanted to be with the grownups I had to behave like a grown up. If I could do this, I was allowed to join them. Sometimes I would do it and other I would rather be playing and not subject to such rules. My sister has brought up her children like that and it is a pleasure to visit. But I have a cousin I will not visit because his children are spoiled and ruin any attempt at conversation.
sailor, we may be talking at cross purposes here, for this:
is exactly what I’m talking about when I say that children can and should learn from adults. However, one cannot achieve this goal if one holds to the “children should be seen and not heard” philosophy. They must be encouraged to participate in the conversation where they can. And the adults must treat them with the same respect they give the other members of the group. Over time, and with practise, the children will learn the rules.
Our kids know that if they want to be silly and show off they will need to find another audience. They also know that if the conversation should turn to something on which a child might reasonably be expected to hold an opinion, one of the adults might very well turn to him and ask him what he thinks. And his response will be given the same attention as anyone else’s. That is how children learn.
Thanks, sailor. I was a little nervous opening the thread again, 'cause after I hit the “submit” button the last time, I had a dreadful sinking feeling of being unnecessarily nasty. I don’t really imagine you that way, but your contributions to this thread DID make the image pop up, and it made me snicker enough to share it.
Like CKDext and Needs, I can empathize with new parents who are completely smitten with their brand new bundle of joy. Like Dinsdale, I am a champion of the Children’s Table at social gatherings. Personally, I am terrified of boring or irritating other people with my kids (NYC is LOADED with kid-haters; moving to Italy would be an interesting alternative)…on business trips, I get asked if I have photos to show, and I never do…I rarely take them to restaurants unless there are no other options; I KNOW they’re going to fight and raise a general ruckus, necessitating threats of or actual punishments, which then leads to sullenness.
On the other hand, my daughter’s now ten, and I really enjoy her company. We make a point of having outings around New York City together, going to shops and movies and other entertainments and dining in good restaurants. When my 4-year-old son gets a little older, I’ll enjoy doing this sort of thing with him, too. At the moment, I’m enjoying doing the sort of things a 4-year-old likes with him.
And everytime I see a post by Ukelele Ike, I think of what would you would have if a certain Scandinavian outlet store began selling nothing other than little Hawaiian guitars.
The kind that asked the host/hostess if my child was welcome. When he was little, and I was invited, I’d say “If I can find a sitter”.
My child was NOT the center of attention (except when he was the guest of honor), he learned at an early age to be around a variety of people. He was NOT allowed to run rampant in some one else’s home (my mommy radar was ALWAYS turned on), I ALWAYS brought age specific stuff with him to amuse himself should it become necessary.
Now that he’s a teenager, perhaps I should reinstate this policy.
And until you’ve tried it, don’t discount the enjoyment that can be gained from tossing back a couple of beers, sitting at the kids table, telling poop, booger, and fart jokes, and watching the kids snort milk out of their noses in amazement at what Uncle Dinsdale just said.
We frequently get together with a group encompassing 3 generations of people who, to one extent or another, have grown up together. The older folks worked and played together and their children all grew up friends. Now we (the 2nd generation) are having kids of our own. These people all include the children in the ways I have described. Now, are we in that much of a minority? Or does sailor just happen to know a whole lot of rude people with spoiled children?
Dinsdale, I am in complete agreement with you. We have a friend with whom we occasionally have dinner. His daughter will inevitably come up with some sort of performance (think “interpretive dance”) that we are forced to watch. It really irritates me, esp. when she involves our kids. She has absolutely no idea how to participate in an appropriate way. She’s 12.
Shodan, I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of, “if you need a sippy cup you have no business handling the crystal.” We dine out regularly with our children, but we still stick to places that offer paper placemats and crayons, as our youngest is only 2. I would feel extremely confident in bringing my 11 year old to a nice restaurant. With proper coaching, the 8 and 5 year olds would probably do just fine, though I wouldn’t risk it if they were overtired.
I would also add that children should be allowed to be children and it is cruel to force them to behave as grown ups when they are not ready, so they belong in the playground which is not interrupting the adults.
I remember when I was a kid how eager I was to be “grown up” and so I would be on my best behavior with them. If after a while I got bored or fidgetty my mother would say “time to go to your room and play”.
A social ocassion is just that, it is not the time to impose your own interests on others. It should be a time for social conversation about topics of general interest.
I have an elderly aunt who continually talks to her pets. She will ask me something and as soon as I start to talk she’ll start talking to any of heer multiple pets and telling it how handsome he’s looking today. Well, I find this extremely rude but because she is elderly and my aunt I try not to get too irritated. They are like children to her. I just try to meet with her at other places than her home.
With friends or family who have spoiled children who get in the way I try to make plans away from their homes and children.
Ukelele Ike, no offense taken. I guess if your description was anywhere close to being true, I might have been offended but since it is not even close in any respect I really got a good laugh of imagining myself as you described.
I’m not mad at my completelly children involved friends, I’ve known them for a while, I know what they’re like. It’s just unfortunate that they missed out on an opportunity to converse with the other guests because they were so involved with their children, the other guests missed out too. Both children, by the way, were very well behaved.
This thread was meant as an observation…you have two couples, both intelligent proffesionals, both have children at about the same time, both are very proud and happy to have a new child.
One couple, their brain seems to have turned into mush, the world revolves around stories of poop and spit up, all conversation has to focus around that; while the other couple chooses to not make their child what defines them. They’re still both good parents, but the second can still function in an adult world.
