In this pit thread, Sofa King gets trapped in the subway with a number of young teen girls, and notices that they are attractive.
This has spawned some debate. I guess the question is: At what point are you not a lecherous dirty old man leering at innocent girls, but rather a man taking note of the attractiveness of a member of the opposite sex? I suppose it has to do with the age of the girl/woman in question, but as was already noted in the other post, there is no magic switch that is flipped, instantaneously triggering the transformation of the former to the latter.
Is it morally wrong for males for notice and feel attraction for “underage” girls, even though they appear (at least at first glance) to be fully mature? Once it is apparent that they are not fully mature, is it to be expected that any attraction the man in question may have felt should be immediately nullified, or is it sufficient that her immaturity is recognized and no further contact is pursued to keep the male on the moral highground?
When a girl is physically mature enough to bear children, her body, usually, does things to make sure it gets noticed. I find nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with finding young, teenaged girls attractive. Especially if said girls are dressing in a provocative manner.
At the same time, I think you should have your balls cut off, bronzed and given back to you if, as an adult, you sexually take advantage of young, teenaged girls.
At a recent family party, a friend of my sister brought her daughter who was in from California. This “girl” was absolutely stunning and was wearing clothes that you couldn’t help but notice her figure. I thought she was somewhere between 17 and 20 by the way she talked and carried herself. In talking with her, I was shocked to discover she was only 15. This did not make her any less attractive or beautiful, but it did make her off limits. I was not the only one that thought that either. And while some of us menfolk laughed at going to hell for thinking what we were thinking, we all know that it would be wrong to act upon any of those thoughts.
Although after finding out her age, I did alter my thinking about her. I spent the next day fantasizing about me telling her “no, I can’t, you are too young” as she was coming on to me in my dreams.
To my mind, the difference is very simple. Being attracted to an underage girl is fine. Acting on that attraction, or making her feel uncomfortable in any way, is really bad. There are no forbidden thoughts or feelings, only forbidden actions.
While on the whole I agree with you, ultrafilter, if I were attracted to a 10 year old, I’d still want to go scrub my mind. Thoughts should never be forbidden (and hopefully it will never be possible to do so), but some of 'em are still bad.
RT, the debate seems to be focusing on post-pubescent girls.
Just this past weekend, I walked by a 15y.o.-ish girl who had the most drop-dead beautiful eyes. The thought that went through my mind was “man, if she were only ten years older…”
So long as I’m not thinking, “man, if she were only 2 weeks older,” I think I’m in the clear.
I just wonder how a 15 year old girls parents would allow such a thing. I think that modesty and decency has been abandoned and allowing such behavior only reduces the girl to an object with little worth. Besides, dressing in that manner at such a young age will only reinforce the idea of beauty being your identity and lead to confusion in the girl’s mind as she matures.
On the other hand for all the guys out there; look all you want and go home to your wife/girlfriend and show them how much you love them (even if you are thinking about that piece of eye candy). That’s my honest opinion.
Puberty in girls occurs around 11 (a SWAG).* I have read that the age is decreasing - some even blame beauty products with estrogen, or something.
Age of consent: the youngest I have heard of (in the United States) is 14 - marriage is required. But mostly it is 18.
Puberty, 11. Age of consent, 18. This inevitably is going to be a source of tension for some. Body says yes, statutes say no.
The real problem, as I see it, is that a girl can look 25, lie about her age, present three forms of identification, be sexually aggressive, and discuss the categorical imperative cogently - yet, if she is 17 and 364 days and has sex in a state where the age of consent is 18 the man goes to jail. “Strict liability offense.”
NOTE: genders in the above example can be reversed, the same, indeterminate, whatever. It still seems silly and soooo Victorian.
To directly answer the OP: IMO, actions are everything. Only in an Augustinian / Orwellian world of use versus disuse and sinful desires is thought crime as bad as do crime.
The definition of “nigger(s)” that I have personally built up in my mind (to hell with the dictionaries) is the equivalent of “bad black person(s)”. Meaning, those blacks who fufil the negative stereotypes about blacks, not all black people in general.
If I referred to music I don’t like that’s made by women as “bitch music”, my intent would not be to degrade all women as “bitches”, only those particular women who make crappy music.
I think it comes back to taking advantage of the young girls. I have seen many teenage girls that are attractive, but I have no desire to be with one. Last time I was with one was when I was 20, whe was 17. It was boring in my mind, completely uninteresting and I realized that she had a much much much different view of sex than I had even at 20 let alone now. So it’s a matter of taking advantage. And leering doesn’t make you a bad person it’s just bad manners and can make the girl uncomfortable.
When I was 8, I found 8 year old girls to be attractive (in the ways that an 8 year old guy can be attracted–certainly not in the blatant and specifically sexual way that I would experience attraction as a teenaged guy). I wasn’t attracted to adult women, or even 14 year old girls, just girls pretty much my own age.
The same was true when I was 14: I thought the girls my own age looked fantastic and attractive, whereas the fully mature females 19, 25, or 37 years old were not of comparable interest.
As a middle-aged adult, I see girls of any younger age and I have a kind of “overlay” reminiscence experience, I can remember being attracted to them as I was as that age and I can still feel it, dimly.
Seems normal to me.
'Course I have to admit the 25 year olds look as yummy as they ever did…
I’ve noticed that, at 31, while I still notice how physically attractive teenage girls are, I can’t work up any emotional desire for them at all, even as sex objects in a masturbatory fantasy. It doesn’t really seem wrong; it just doesn’t do anything for me.
So, for myself anyway, I feel no compunctions about noticing and appreciating an attractive, sexy 14 year old, because it’s little more than a (silent) acknowledgement.
I’m 18 so the gap between my own age and that of somebody who is illegal is smaller then some posters, so I don’t have the OMG I check out a 16 year old! Not all that long ago a 16 year old would have been fair game for me (Not that I actually hunt anyone or anything.) so I don’t feel ‘dirty’.
I’ll let you know if I feel the same way in 5 or so years. But as it stands I’m attracted to more mature woman, of I don’t think I’m going to run into a nice 24 year old who would be interested in me, not only because of my age but because I’m just ass ugly.
Funny how so many people focus on crime rather than recognizing that their are other considerations that moderate behavior. I like in Canada and I can assure you that while 14 year old girls may be “legal” they aren’t suddenly fair game for old perverts like ourselves.
These are still children who may look great on the outside but have tantrums when they don’t want to go to bed at the appointed hour. Try imaging that for a moment and see if it doesn’t take the lead out of your pencils.
It’s perfectly normal for men to be attracted to underage women (hence the term “jailbait”), and it’s not a problem as long as 1) the man is discreet and has the good sense and willpower not to act on his desires, 2) he doesn’t obsess over pubescent girls to the exclusion of older women, a la Humbert Humbert in Lolita (I believe this is known as “ephebophilia”), and 3) his attraction doesn’t extend to prepubescent children.
