Exactly. A forensic psychologist who testifies “The results of my evaluation show the defendant to be a highly narcissistic prototypical psychopath with strong indicators of paraphilic sexual sadism” has told us something of value, whereas “The results of my evaluation strongly suggest that the defendant is, in fact, a huge asshole” doesn’t tell us much we couldn’t figure out for ourselves.
No, but there have been assertions in this thread that by calling them assholes, we’re being intolerant or misunderstanding or… something.
I think for NPD in particular, the bottom line is that I’d be VERY surprised if someone who could be diagnosed with the disorder, willing put themselves in a situation where they were diagnosed, and believed the diagnosis, cared, or pursued any kind of treatment. In fact, I’d be interested in hearing about such a case.
Of course it doesn’t excuse the behavior. But the word asshole is specifically designed to be offensive. You can’t use that word for actually trying to treat it.
I’d also suspect that the best way to treat it would be to convince the person that it is in their own best interest to appear to not be a narcissist. The worst thing to do would be to just insult them–if you’re hurting me, why should I do what you say? Heck, you’re apparently an asshole, too (since you hurt the all-important me) so apparently that’s not too bad a thing.
Well, at the very least, it would make court transcripts more readable.
What gets me is how being a loud, self-centered, manipulative, dramatic, suicide-threatening narcissistic basket case so often works, for them, like a charm. They have people knocking themselves out trying to placate them, waiting hand and foot upon them, paying rapt attention to their every utterance. It works!..My best friend’s mother is like this, always has been, has warped my hag-ridden friend’s whole life. Used to call up the school and demand her daughter be sent home, because she needed something done. Used to send her kid off to school after an arguement saying, 'you have hurt me so, I don’t know if I can go on living, I just want to kill myself". (and yes, my friend knows what’s the deal with her mom but can’t seem to break out of the vicious cycle. Yes, it’s totally my friend’s fault, a lifetime of this abuse should just be put aside, right :rolleyes:?)
She sobs, “mom is 80 now, when she dies I am going to feel SO GUILTY!” (that she wasn’t good enough, fast enough, attentive and loving enough). Me, I’ll go back later and dance on the old bitch’s grave. Free at last!
purplehorshoe, YES. I’m no psychologist, but from what I’ve EXPERIENCED and what I’ve read about NPD or BPD, combine the two and I’m positive my Stepmother, Stepsister and Mother have it. Example: My Dad married NPD Mom, Divorces Said person (probably as a result of PD), marries NPD Stepmom (who is ALOT like his first wife). My stepsister is DEF a narcissist, thanks to her Mom. So yeah, I’m jus recently learning that it’s not ALL me- there are some SERIOUS personality issues going on, especially as these people get older. The disease rears it’s ugly head very blatently, unfortunately. It has nowhere to hide, especially for family members. But I’ve been the scapegoat for years. It’s all my fault, they can do no wrong. I admit, I’m in recovery and I’ve had to get really honest with myself, about myself. I’m not perfect. But I’m very perceptive about reality, always have been. Some people just don’t like to be “exposed”… Hmm. Thanks for listening.
meanoldman, you crack me up- keep it coming. 
This probably explains a lot of cults or cultlike groups. You have a group of basically suggestible people, humble and trusting, and one fortunate individual who’s more than happy to do the suggesting.
I believe depression MAY be a type of narcissism, however it is not indicitive of NPD. I believe NPD comes first and depression follows later in life.
I’mm with you on that. However, there are a lot of anti-therapy types out there who believe depression is no more, or less, than a selfish act.
I think this stigma is very nearly inevitable, partially because of what you say later, that
I think, because people with PDs aren’t working within the normal bounds of social behavior, normal people who aren’t either experienced with them or informed about the disorders get completely blindsided by their behavior. It’s easy to guard against someone trying to tear your relationships apart if you know it’s coming, but it’s a lot harder if you assume the PD person has normal boundaries and credibility. Yeah, the “normals” are responsible for their actions, but their reactions are relying on inaccurate information if they assume a person with PD is normal. For example, someone might reasonably assume their mother cares about them, so if she thinks I’m a terrible person, it must mean something other than she has a mental illness. People who are pathologically focused on themselves or completely unable to see other perspectives are not something most people are trained to deal with. While the strategies you need to use to deal effectively with someone with NPD might be occasionally useful in dealing with other people, most of the time they simply aren’t needed. It’s much easier to just run for the hills if you run into someone with a personality disorder. The stigma in this case seems like it could be incredibly valuable for the average person, even if it’s unfair to the person with the PD.
Beware of Doug- Ironically it’s the NStepmom who thinks the depressed should just “Get over it”. Perfect example…
And try talking about your situation at home with other people when you’re a tween or a teen; I learned pretty fast that the response I’d get would be to have more grown-ups telling me “how can you complain, when you have such perfect parents?”, even if I wasn’t even complaining but trying to figure out if my situation at home was normal (it was not). That reinforces their power; breaking those shackles is doable once you’ve seen that the problem is not you, it’s her/him/them, but a child certainly won’t be able to do it.
I’m beginning to wonder if anybody exists who doesn’t have a disorder.
This thread pretty much described 5-8 people I work with.
Superhal- very good point. Is it all just a matter of perception? I could have a plethora of PD’s, and that is scary. But knowing this and choosing to work on myself is half the battle.
I had a conversation the other day with one of them. Every sentence out of her mouth was about how she would be inconvenienced, how much trouble it was for her, and how much she was suffering. I found myself being surprised when she actually focused on someone else (in this case, the workers she supervised.) When the subject changed, the next thing out of her mouth was how it affected her in her context.
I think the next time I talk to her, I’m going to throw something in there completely out from left field to just to hear how she manages to make it about herself:
“In the book Ender’s Game, they traveled 50 light years in 8 years. That must have been like 99.5% of the speed of light or so.”
Apparently it is no longer politically correct to believe anyone is inherently good or bad. If you’re an asshole, you are not a bad person… you have a “disorder.”
I don’t buy any of it. If someone is a self-centered asshole, then they are a self-centered asshole.
I think it’s classified as a “disorder” because it’s not a choice they can make. For example, Tourrettes is “just swearing” but these people are swearing because of a problem in their brains.
The issue, imho, is people who seem to have it but are simply just assholes.
My (old) view of the DSM is that the “disorders” are ways to distinguish abnormal patterns of behavior from the norm. Those on Axis 1 are generally pretty debilitating, both to the person so identified and those around them. Axis 2, PS’s, not so much. These people seldom seek help because their behavior generally does not cause them ongoing pain…maybe temporarily, when someone healthy tells them to take a hike.
The old term “character disorder” suggests some faulty morality and choice making…and I have no problem with that.
Someone with a personality disorder who is actively trying to work on it, and is trying to get better is one thing.
Someone with NPD, however, rarely acknowledges that they have a problem. It is always about someone else.
While they may indeed have a “disorder”, because of the fact that they think they are fine,and are doing nothing to correct it, they are virtually indistinguishable from a simple, self-centered asshole.