Recently a FUROR has erupted since they are eliminated the official diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Ok, I give up: What are narcissists really like to deal with in the real world? I understand the concept of narcissus staring at his own image, though to me that is just vanity. What is da STRAIGHT DOPE on dis?
Details please, vent it all in this thread.
From the expanded article linked in your link (wink!):
That’s my dad. Fortunately, he took off when I was three (although he didn’t divorce my mother, just kept her on a leash from afar) and didn’t come back until I was long gone myself. As a child, of course, I learned quickly to please him in a way that he felt appropriately reflected his wonderfulness (like book smarts and awards). He has lost every job he’s had because he’s a raging jerk. My mother has Alzheimers and he whines because her forgetfulness makes his life sooooo hard. He also believes she forgets stuff just to screw him. She’s still allowed to drive, but shouldn’t be crossing major streets. He insists she go out and get him Burger King (thereby crossing a major street) all the time. He has gone off on me I don’t know how many times because I somehow slighted him (through innocent behavior like talking to my uncle at my uncle’s wedding). He sees an agenda to screw him in everything everyone says and does, and will fly into a rage over it. He never ever wants to have a conversation that isn’t about him. When he feels he’s been wronged, he will stop taking his medications, have a bad reaction (predictably) to suddenly stopping his Actos and predisone, panic, and call 911. Cuz nothing says “I will not be ignored!” like an ambulance at your house. Of course, we are all expected to drop everything and rush to the ER. When you get there, he’s fine (of course) sitting up, talking. I’ve been there when he went off on the firemen who came to save his ass because they weren’t strapping him to the gurney correctly and he should know, he was a field tech in the Army. Fifty years ago.
How do I deal with him? Mostly I severely restrict any interaction with him, period. I establish and enforce pretty strong boundaries. I try to remember that his pathology is not a reflection on me or my worth. I try not to let myself get too upset when he gets to me. There’s nothing I can do to change his behavior, and I only ruin my day (or many days in a row) and my sleep if I take it personally. He is a piece of work, and I’m deeply ambivalent about going to the funeral when he dies. I probably won’t.
There’s probably at least one narcissist in any large workplace. A couple of signs in layman’s terms:
-They usually have NO sense of humor or levity about themselves
-They’re usually very condescending, convinced of everybody else’s idiocy and their own near infallibility
-If it is clearly demonstrable that they are wrong, they’ll still defend their position- Black Knight paradigm.
I’ve met a few. They’re difficult to be around. Characteristics:
They…
Mine too. He’s more self-absorbed than a roll of Brawny paper towels.
Mine three! Everyone is a prop or a mirror with no real purpose except to be useful to him. ‘Useful’ = make him feel noble and important. It is pretty infuriating, but also incredibly sad that someone can be so preoccupied with feeling impressed with himself.
Official diagnosis requires at least five of the following (stolen from wikipedia):
In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
Rarely acknowledges mistakes and/or imperfections
Requires excessive admiration
Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy: is unwilling or unable to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitude.
I would be hesitant to just call anyone who thinks highly of themselves as someone with NPD. Lifetime prevalence is only 1%.
How often does the narcissist seek psychiatric help?
Also, I agree with you that this behavior is NOT for people who think highly of themselves. Quite the opposite, hence the tendancy to constanly manipulate everyone around him to fit with what he needs.
Not sure (although I imagine that many times they are forced by family members who can’t take it anymore), but if you’re asking about the lifetime prevalence number, I was under the impression that it’s based on an extrapolation of diagnoses into the general population, not just based on how many people actually seek treatment.
I just get kind of annoyed because while psychiatric disorders are more amorphous than non-psychiatric diseases, there are rigorous criteria for diagnosing outlined in the DSM. People seem to diagnose those around them with psychiatric disorders all the time, and I don’t think many of them have the DSM laid out before them to make the diagnosis. “Armchair psychiatry” seems so prevalent to me and I find it sort of irritating, because you don’t see “armchair endocrinology” or “armchair neurology” nearly as frequently. And while non-psychiatric diseases do have manifestations that generally only doctors see, like serum levels of various proteins, many of this diseases are also clincally diagnosed by behavior and appearance, just like psychiatric diseases. Yet armchair diagnoses in the nonpsychiatric fields are less frequent and usually require a doctor’s confirmation to be considered “valid.”
The differential (list of disorders that present similarly but not exactly) for NPD is quite long, btw. It’s on the wikipedia entry.
Actually, do you guys know the difference between psychiatry and psychology? Because technically, there’s no such thing as a psychiatric disorder.
I don’t think it’s being eliminated so much as being combined with antisocial and psychopathic traits in the new Antisocial/Psychopathic personality disorder, since there’s a great deal of overlap. (More after lunch)
Well, I know that psychiatry is a branch of medicine concerned with diagnoses and medicine-based treatments, and psychology is a much broader branch of science which includes research, clinical counseling, and bunch of other things.
We just finished our lectures on psychiatry (2nd year med student) and they used the term, “psychiatric disorder” (just as you might say endocrine disorder or neurologic disorder) frequently, although if I’m using it wrong I’d like to know why.
My younger sister is a classic narcissist. Everyone on the planet is here for her use. Nobody on the planet has any problems that can begin to equal hers. Nothing is ever her fault, but other people’s problems are always due to something stupid that they did (When she drove her car up and sidewalk nd almost hit a child, it was the child’s fault for being there.) If she has to do the most minor thing for you, she will bring it up every time she asks you for a major favor. Nobody in my family will have anything to do with her. She just wears you out.
Note: This is not my sister the lesbian, who is older than me. This is my younger sister, once known as the “Crazy B-word or C-word.” Since I don’t use those words, I once called her the “crazy yin-yang” and it stuck.
I’ve plugged this websitebefore (note: it’s nothing scientific) but the descriptions given, especially here and here, gave me a lot of insight and perspective in dealing with my mother.
Random excerpts that I found particularly noteworthy:
“…you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you’re bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way.”
“If you’re reading this because of problems with someone you know now, the chances are excellent that one or both of your parents was a narcissist. Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with special prior training (i.e., who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them.”
“Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible … or else they are worthless. There’s no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists.”
“…a narcissistic woman may believe herself to be the very model of perfect womanhood, the standard by which all others are measured, and she will try to force her daughters to be just like her, she will not be able to cope with daughters who are taller or shorter than she is, fatter or thinner, who have bigger or smaller feet, breasts, teeth, who have different favorite colors than hers, etc.”
“Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don’t get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don’t make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. … They specialize in sarcasm about others and mistake it for wit, but, in my experience, narcissists are entirely incapable of irony.”
“… they seem always to be on one or another self-imposed, self-invented eccentric dietary regime.”
It goes on and on. Reading all this, I was sitting in front of my computer doing this: :eek: Who was this person who wrote all this, and was she sitting in the same room as us my entire childhood? It put a lot into context for me, in particular, my mother’s complete lack of morals. She is firmly convinced that doing something “wrong” means getting caught. Didn’t get caught? Then it wasn’t wrong. The complete lack of empathy is … chilling.
I never understood why my father married her in the first place, let alone stayed so loyal to her. Then … I met his mother. They are exactly alike: manipulative, so manipulative it’s just second nature. They can’t conceive of relating to other people in any other way.
If I read through those symptoms and get worried that they might apply to me, does that mean that I don’t have NPD?
You’re not using it wrong. The mainstream mental health provider community uses the term “psychiatric disorder”. A few pedants object to calling something a “mind-healing disorder” (psychiatric = mind-healing.)
At least that’s the objection I’ve heard raised in the past.
Nope, or yes, I mean, you’re in the clear. A narcissist sees nothing wrong with himself. My mom, for instance, used to say about everyone who didn’t do as she wanted, that they were “after power”. Some years later, in her woo-woo phase, those same people would be labeled as “spiritually back”. But there was never anything wrong with her.
Purplehorseshoe, thanks for mentioning that site. Very useful. It describes very well the people who are narcissistic as we meet them in real life.
Whew! I’m in the clear! See, I knew I was perfect.
Uh oh…
Just remember, many folks (including myself) have narcissistic tendencies.
It’s generally when they rise to the level of interfering with one’s functioning that they rise to a level of a disorder.
Also, remember that unduly deprecating oneself, by saying such things as “oh, I’m no good”, etc. is often a narcissistic manifestation.
It’s all about the self, people! 
I’m glad someone else finds it useful. It was a real eye-opener for me, and I regret no one told me some of this stuff even earlier. Better late than never, I suppose. It occurred to me as I was prowling it again to pull those excerpts that my first “real” boyfriend is a complete textbook narcissist as well. Boy, was I blind - I had myself so convinced that I had found someone who was nothing like my parents, someone who would fix all the craziness in my life … when really, all he did was amp up the drama to 11.