NRA plants mole/spy in gun-control organizations

No, you can also be so brutal that no one dares fight - Saddam did it. Or you can simply ignore the casualties.

Or, you can recruit those civilians to your side; have roaming death squads of true believers killing the disloyal. Again; I don’t see any reason to believe that the gun owners of America are the sort of people who WOULD fight against a fascistic government. Instead, I’d expect them to help hunt down and kill anyone they think is liberal or gay or atheist or Jewish or whatever. That’s the sort of people who tend to be enthusiastic about gun rights; not noble defenders of civil rights, but the scum element of America. Who only care about one right; the right to have a gun.

That’s just silly. The NVA was supplied by state-of-the-art military equipment by the Soviet Union and China. They didn’t win the war with deer rifles. They had tanks and missiles and jet aircraft and heavy artillery and naval ships and all those things without which no pack of barefoot farmers is going to beat any modern army.

They promoted her. If they don’t vet their people, how is that anybody’s fault but their own?

Like I said it’s not a question of “beating” the army, it’s a question of harassing them enough that they’ll give up. Over a long enough period of time, I think they could have done the same without planes, tanks or artillery. In any case, an insurrection could easily create artillery and build armored vehicles if it wanted. (In America, with the extremely high availability of heavy trucks and machinery, it would probably be a snap.) They would have to create ordnance of their own - they’d need to do it in secret warehouses and hideouts, but it could be done. But none of that would be possible without the individual man on the ground with a rifle. Scouts, guards - they would have to be armed.

From this thread at THR:


What good can a handgun do against an Army?
By Mike Vanderboegh

A friend of mine recently forwarded me a question a friend of his had posed:
“If/when our Federal Government comes to pilfer, pillage, plunder our property and destroy our lives, what good can a handgun do against an army with advanced weaponry, tanks, missiles, planes, or whatever else they might have at their disposal to achieve their nefarious goals? (I’m not being facetious: I accept the possibility that what happened in Germany, or similar, could happen here; I’m just not sure that the potential good from an armed citizenry in such a situation outweighs the day-to-day problems caused by masses of idiots who own guns.)”

If I may, I’d like to try to answer that question. I certainly do not think the writer facetious for asking it. The subject is a serious one that I have given much research and considerable thought to. I believe that upon the answer to this question depends the future of our Constitutional republic, our liberty and perhaps our lives. My friend Aaron Zelman, one of the founders of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership told me once:

“If every Jewish and anti-nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle and twenty rounds of ammunition AND THE WILL TO USE IT (emphasis supplied, MV), Adolf Hitler would be a little-known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic.” - Aaron Zelman, JPFO

Note well that phrase: “and the will to use it,” for the simply-stated question, “What good can a handgun do against an army?”, is in fact a complex one and must be answered at length and carefully. It is a military question. It is also a political question. But above all it is a moral question which strikes to the heart of what makes men free, and what makes them slaves. First, let’s answer the military question.

Most military questions have both a strategic and a tactical component. Let’s consider the tactical.

A friend of mine owns an instructive piece of history. It is a small, crude pistol, made out of sheet-metal stampings by the U.S. during World War II. While it fits in the palm of your hand and is a slowly-operated, single-shot arm, it’s powerful .45 caliber projectile will kill a man with brutal efficiency. With a short, smooth-bore barrel it can reliably kill only at point blank ranges, so its use requires the will (brave or foolhardy) to get in close before firing. It is less a soldier’s weapon than an assassin’s tool. The U.S. manufactured them by the million during the war, not for our own forces but rather to be air-dropped behind German lines to resistance units in occupied Europe. Crude and slow (the fired case had to be knocked out of the breech by means of a little wooden dowel, a fresh round procured from the storage area in the grip and then manually reloaded and cocked) and so wildly inaccurate it couldn’t hit the broad side of a French barn at 50 meters, to the Resistance man or woman who had no firearm it still looked pretty darn good.

The theory and practice of it was this:

First, you approach a German sentry with your little pistol hidden in your coat pocket and, with Academy-award sincerity, ask him for a light for your cigarette (or the time the train leaves for Paris, or if he wants to buy some non-army-issue food or a half- hour with your “sister”). When he smiles and casts a nervous glance down the street to see where his Sergeant is at, you blow his brains out with your first and only shot, then take his rifle and ammunition. Your next few minutes are occupied with “getting out of Dodge,” for such critters generally go around in packs. After that (assuming you evade your late benefactor’s friends) you keep the rifle and hand your little pistol to a fellow Resistance fighter so they can go get their own rifle.

Or maybe you then use your rifle to get a submachine gun from the Sergeant when he comes running. Perhaps you get very lucky and pickup a light machine gun, two boxes of ammunition and a haversack of hand grenades. With two of the grenades and the expenditure of a half-a-box of ammunition at a hasty roadblock the next night, you and your friends get a truck full of arms and ammunition. (Some of the cargo is sticky with “Boche” blood, but you don’t mind terribly.)

Pretty soon you’ve got the best armed little maquis unit in your part of France, all from that cheap little pistol and the guts to use it. (One wonders if the current political elite’s opposition to so-called “Saturday Night Specials” doesn’t come from some adopted racial memory of previous failed tyrants. Even cheap little pistols are a threat to oppressive regimes.)

They called the pistol the “Liberator.” Not a bad name, all in all.

Now let’s consider the strategic aspect of the question, “What good can a handgun do against an army…?” We have seen that even a poor pistol can make a great deal of difference to the military career and postwar plans of one enemy soldier. That’s tactical. But consider what a million pistols, or a hundred million pistols (which may approach the actual number of handguns in the U.S. today), can mean to the military planner who seeks to carry out operations against a populace so armed. Mention “Afghanistan” or “Chechnya” to a member of the current Russian military hierarchy and watch them shudder at the bloody memories. Then you begin to get the idea that modern munitions, air superiority and overwhelming, precision-guided violence still are not enough to make victory certain when the targets are not sitting Christmas- present fashion out in the middle of the desert.

“A billion here, a billion there, sooner or later it adds up to real money.” --Everett Dirksen

Consider that there are at least as many firearms-- handguns, rifles and shotguns-- as there are citizens of the United States. Consider that last year there were more than 14 million Americans who bought licenses to hunt deer in the country. 14 million-- that’s a number greater than the largest five professional armies in the world combined. Consider also that those deer hunters are not only armed, but they own items of military utility-- everything from camouflage clothing to infrared “game finders”, Global Positioning System devices and night vision scopes.

Consider also that quite a few of these hunters are military veterans. Just as moving around in the woods and stalking game are second nature, military operations are no mystery to them, especially those who were on the receiving end of guerrilla war in Southeast Asia. Indeed, such men, aging though they may be, may be more psychologically prepared for the exigencies of civil war (for this is what we are talking about) than their younger active-duty brother-soldiers whose only military experience involved neatly defined enemies and fronts in the Grand Campaign against Saddam. Not since 1861-1865 has the American military attempted to wage a war athwart its own logistical tail (nor indeed has it ever had to use modern conventional munitions on the Main Streets of its own hometowns and through its relatives’ backyards, nor has it tested the obedience of soldiers who took a very different oath with orders to kill their “rebellious” neighbors, but that touches on the political aspect of the question).

But forget the psychological and political for a moment, and consider just the numbers. To paraphrase the Senator, “A million pistols here, a million rifles there, pretty soon you’re talking serious firepower.” No one, repeat, no one, will conquer America, from within or without, until its citizenry are disarmed. We remain, as a British officer had reason to complain at the start of our Revolution, “a people numerous and armed.”

The Second Amendment is a political issue today only because of the military reality that underlies it. Politicians who fear the people seek to disarm them. People who fear their government’s intentions refuse to be disarmed. The Founders understood this. So, too, does every tyrant who ever lived. Liberty-loving Americans forget it at their peril. Until they do, American gunowners in the aggregate represent a strategic military fact and an impediment to foreign tyranny. They also represent the greatest political challenge to home-grown would-be tyrants. If the people cannot be forcibly disarmed against their will, then they must be persuaded to give up their arms voluntarily. This is the siren song of “gun control,” which is to say “government control of all guns,” although few self-respecting gun-grabbers would be quite so bold as to phrase it so honestly.

Joseph Stalin, when informed after World War II that the Pope disapproved of Russian troops occupying Trieste, turned to his advisors and asked, “The Pope? The Pope? How many divisions does he have?” Dictators are unmoved by moral suasion. Fortunately, our Founders saw the wisdom of backing the First Amendment up with the Second. The “divisions” of the army of American constitutional liberty get into their cars and drive to work in this country every day to jobs that are hardly military in nature. Most of them are unmindful of the service they provide. Their arms depots may be found in innumerable closets, gunracks and gunsafes.


Think about it. Even if you’re still opposed to the idea, it’s historically interesting.

(Points and laughs at Der Trihs)

I don’t know too many gun owners who are pro-fascist.
I don’t know too many gun owners who only care about the second amendment.

Frankly, I’m more bothered by media types who seem blissfully unaware of any amendments beyond the first.

I suspect that you don’t know too many gun owners at all, but are merely spouting misconceptions based on your own beliefs.
As for the OP:

This just in: The sky is still blue, water is wet, the sun is hot. Pick any organization with even slightly controversial viewpoints, and you’ll very probably find people spying on them for other organizations with alternate viewpoints. I wouldn’t be shocked to find hunters working for PETA, PETA people working for the NRA, pro-life people working for Planned Parenthood, Republicans in the Democratic Party, and on and on.

I don’t recall saying that an insurrection with small arms would be no help. In fact I seem to recall saying that such an insurrection would cause pretty continual warfare, not an easy win for Mr. Government.

My point was originally simply that any insurrection in the US isn’t going to settle for simply making a deal with a fascist government; it’s going to want to take back the whole place. And generally backing a guy with a bomb into a corner is going to leave both you and he scattered across the landscape.

No. Small arms in the hands of a trained, organised, situationally knowledgeable civilian populace can be a serious threat. And you don’t have to kill everyone - just enough so that you’re taken seriously.

Easily, and it’s hers. Because she lied.

They were stupid. But she’s still a liar. The wool being comparitively easy to pull over their eyes does not mean there was no deception.

So, I am one of the boards dyslexics, and we still don’t have a spell checker. Deal with it.

And purgatorial can be a descriptor of something OTHER than a religious waiting room. 1 : of, relating to, or suggestive of purgatory. In other words, someone who believes in certain freedoms : a place or state of temporary suffering or misery can well describe being forced to carry a rape baby to term, or being refused an education because I have a cunt instead of a cock, or being refused a say in government because I have a cunt instead of a cock. Or being raped because I went to the market place alone, with out a male member of the family to protect me.

Fuck off asshat.

That phrase encapsulates the history of gun control in America. It originated with the “Black Codes” (getting blood out of white sheets is a bitch) and continued with natiivist restrictions aimed at the wrong sort of new immigrants.

Then you don’t know many Republicans.

And I’m not surprised that a defender of gun rights laughs at murder.

If he thinks that, he’s a fool. That’s the kind of attitude any good tyrant or would-be tyrant loves - the attitude of an easy victim.

No, they aren’t. They ARE a threat to the general public - which is why the RIGHT wing “political elite” has no problem with them. Nothing brings a smile to a Republican’s face like the death of the common folk.

A silly name. It was armies than beat the Nazis, not guys with handguns.

You really are ignorant. Those people most certainly didn’t rely on handguns and rifles to harass the Russians. And, driving off a conqueror is much easier than overthrowing a tyrant; a tyrant can’t retreat without losing power.

No military is ever outnumbered by a disorganized mob. The US army would slaughter them all with ease.

Again, garbage. There’s no reason to believe that all those people would BE fighting against the tyranny, instead of for it.

Nonsense. Any politician who fears the people isn’t going to care if they are armed or not. Saddam didn’t, to use the obvious example he was a tyrant, and he disproves your claim. If anything, they prefer them to be armed, for the feeling of false security.

Again, garbage, they are a useful tool for tyrants and would be tyrants. If they can’t get an oppressive law passed, incite your followers to murder. Which is what we see with the anti-abortion movement.

As I noted, American gun control laws have historically been a tool to insure that only the government’s agents and “the right people” (supporters of the current regime) have access to guns.

In other words, gun control is how the government produces the situation Der Trihs keeps ranting against.

This was plainly recognized at the time – during the debates over what became the Fourteenth Amendment, the gun-control “Black Codes” were specifically cited as examples of laws that were to be struck down by the amendment. When a gun control case reaches the Supreme Court that forces a square addressing of the incorporation issue, the “original intent” advocates will pretty much have to conclude that, yes, the drafters and ratifiers intended that the states would be bound to respect the Second Amendment guarantee of an individual right to keep and bear arms.

Undoubtedly these gun-control organizations will be blown out of the water when the NRA publicizes all the information their spies have uncovered about the secret government agenda to disarm political opposition.

I would like to know where I allegedly did this, you lying, distorting piece of shit.

Yeeeeee-Hawwww
or should I say, ‘Good for her.’

Actually this is complete idiocy. Even the Military uses small arms. If there were to be a rebellion in the US it would quickly turn into a Civil War and the previously armed rebels would soon have Tank Divisions and maybe an aircraft carrier or two. This doesn’t make the small arms irrelevant as the small arms would be required to ignite the conflict. Comparing it to Iraq is pretty stupid.

Just as many in the military will have abandoned their loyalty to that leader.

You’re right, it would’ve been much better for this elderly lady to have not had a gun.

You are confusing the NVA with the VC. The VC had piss-poor armaments in the early stages, yet were still a formidable force. The VC made the NVA incursions possible.

Again, Saddam did not have a gun culture among the Shiites to deal with. He (like the Saudis) kept his military power in the hands of his own party and the Sunnis. If there had been a freedom to own arms in Iraq, and the ability for all citizens to participate in the military, you would have seen a different world.

As for the rest of your statement, while I agree that there are some gun owners on the bigoted side, there are also plenty like myself on on the libertarian side. I have helped run training classes for Pink Pistols. The pro-gun folks hate the government to such an extent I think you might find it difficult to have them all join the fascist side. Instead, I would expect a bit of a shootout between the fascist side and the libertarian side - if you really want to continue painting this fantasy.

Where would you classify the armed black looters of the LA riots and the armed Korean shopkeepers who fought them? Which one is the bigoted right winger, and which is the easy target being rounded up?