[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
What bothered me was the way those people callously turned a simple family issue into a self-righteous political cause.
[/QUOTE]
Well, it would have been a simple family issue were it not for human rights conditions in Cuba, right? You can’t place all blame here solely in Miami.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Well, it would have been a simple family issue were it not for human rights conditions in Cuba, right?
[/QUOTE]
What would have happened had the child been from Syria, or Burma?
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
Are we allowed to say gusano in the Pit? Or will this offend tender sensibilities?
[/QUOTE]
Why on earth would you want to call anti-Castro Cubans “worms”? If they hate Castro and the Cuban government, don’t they have a reason to? These people who you dismiss as worms were forced to flee their homes, because they were afraid, not without reason, that if they stayed, they’d be imprisoned or killed. They’re victims of Castro, just as much as the Cubans who stayed.
[QUOTE=Frank]
What would have happened had the child been from Syria, or Burma?
[/QUOTE]
It would have made the boat trip a lot more impressive.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Well, it would have been a simple family issue were it not for human rights conditions in Cuba, right? You can’t place all blame here solely in Miami.
[/QUOTE]
The opinions of the kidnappers about conditions in Cuba did not give them the right to violate the law and hold that kid hostage.
[QUOTE=Frank]
What would have happened had the child been from Syria, or Burma?
[/QUOTE]
Or Alabama?
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing]
It would have made the boat trip a lot more impressive.
[/QUOTE]
No need. If he’d been a Haitian little boy it would have been a non-story.
[QUOTE=Frank]
What would have happened had the child been from Syria, or Burma?
[/QUOTE]
Good question. Seems none of these three countries are signatories to even the Hague Convention of 1980 regarding transnational child custody, much less the 1996 conventions that clarified and strengthened these points of international law. Moreover, Burma and Syria are notorious bad actors here - Syria routinely denies that non-Syrians have any claims to custody or even visitation when children are spirited there when custody cases go bad, and Burma routinely turns a blind eye when children are taken across its borders for forced labor or worse.
So I think we would have had quite a bit to say about it. And rightly so.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Ah, the soft bigotry of low expectations. 
[/QUOTE]
I always thought of myself as openly bigoted against Stalinist tyrants. When I’m at a stoplight and I see one cross the street, I lock my door and roll up the window.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The opinions of the kidnappers about conditions in Cuba did not give them the right to violate the law and hold that kid hostage.
[/QUOTE]
But what is the law?
There is a case on the books - Polovchak v. Meese - prompted by a 12 year old kid who defected to America back around 1979. The case states that deportation cannot occur until a court has determined whether the interests of the child are best served by allowing him to defect.
Now, all well and good - the family in Miami had actually lost their case. But they were appealing that decision.
I don’t know whether you can unambiguously state that the law went exclusively one way or the other here - that appeal was never heard, and the legal system across those miles of ocean work a good bit differently. The only thing it serves to do is fit your debating style of saying things are one way, and that’s that. No debate needed.
Sorry - ain’t so. I’ll happily admit there are good parents and happy kids in Cuba - mostly making the best of a bad situation. I’ll even admit that it may have been for the best that Elian was sent back there. But I won’t state that it is unambiguously true that this was the best, nor will I state that this would be the best thing in every case.
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Well, “essentially” can cover a multitude of sins, but even without relying on it, how much progress did Cuba make in those areas under Fulgencio Batista?
Isolated I’ll give you, if you insist.
[/QUOTE]
I caught that, too, and my thought also was that you could include Batista’s regime and Obama’s statement could be essentially correct.
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
Are we allowed to say gusano in the Pit? Or will this offend tender sensibilities?
(I see that word as applying to the Professional Cuban Exiles. *Not * all Cuban-Americans.)
[/QUOTE]
If I can someone an asshole I’m pretty sure you can use “gusano”, but unless you base the insult on a specific action, as I did when I said asshole, then you’d just be repeating Castro propaganda.
Interesting thing about the term gusano, it does not mean Cuban exiles specifically, it is used by the Castro government to refer to anyone who is seen as a danger to the revolution. Consequently over time those who have been called “gusanos” have been gays, artists, writers, businessmen, those with long hair, and even Beatles fans.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Did you know his father was his father? So what if the kidnappers were related to him? Do you have any kids? How would you feel if your own kid was (illegally) being held hostage by a mob because they decided your nationality made you an unfit parent? What bothered me was the way those people callously turned a simple family issue into a self-righteous political cause.
[/QUOTE]
No kids here thank you, but you must not have understood the gist of what I said. Elian was staying with Juan Manuel’s family in Miami. It was pretty much understood, in Cuba at least, that Elian had come to the US with the express permission of Juan Manuel, and it was only later when Castro decided to use Elian as a political tool that Juan Manuel was forced to claim Elian had left without his permission.
In any case, sooner or later Juan Manuel and Elian will be able to speak for themselves.
[QUOTE=lalenin]
Oh please, don’t give me a link to a wikipedia page as your fucking answer. I know more about the Elian affair than you, because I saw it in Cuba and again later in Canada. For instance did you know that the people Elian was staying with were his father’s relatives? The same father who claimed he had no idea the boy and his mother were leaving Cuba?
And since the actions of the Cubans you refer to scared you so much, I imagine you are equally as scared of blacks, people from Detroit, South Central, and even sports fans. I guess you don’t leave your house much.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus, over sensitive much?
No shit they were his father’s relatives. As for his mother leaving, you do know his parents were divorced, right?
I never said he was better off in Cuba-just that the situation here wasn’t much better, and his relatives (not ALL Cuban-Americans) were a bunch of assholes. At least he’s with his family-father, stepmother, and brother, now.
And if those in Miami hate Castro so much, why don’t they get off their asses and do something, rather than making a riot over some poor little kid?
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
But what is the law?
There is a case on the books - Polovchak v. Meese - prompted by a 12 year old kid who defected to America back around 1979. The case states that deportation cannot occur until a court has determined whether the interests of the child are best served by allowing him to defect.
Now, all well and good - the family in Miami had actually lost their case. But they were appealing that decision.
I don’t know whether you can unambiguously state that the law went exclusively one way or the other here - that appeal was never heard, and the legal system across those miles of ocean work a good bit differently. The only thing it serves to do is fit your debating style of saying things are one way, and that’s that. No debate needed.
Sorry - ain’t so. I’ll happily admit there are good parents and happy kids in Cuba - mostly making the best of a bad situation. I’ll even admit that it may have been for the best that Elian was sent back there. But I won’t state that it is unambiguously true that this was the best, nor will I state that this would be the best thing in every case.
[/QUOTE]
Their custody was revoked and they defied a federal order to return the boy to their father. That’s against the law, dude. They were violating the law by holding him hostage. Not only that but many of the people in the mob were armed and expressed intentions to murder federal agents trying to rescue the child from the kidnappers. They climbed over barriers and tried to fuck with them too.
I thought Janet Reno took it way too easy on those people. IMO, she should have tear gassed all those bitches or sprayed them with rubber bulets or both.
Do you have any kids, Moto? How would you feel if a bunch of radical nutjobs in another country decided take your kid away from you (illegally) because they didn’t like Bush?
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
And if those in Miami hate Castro so much, why don’t they get off their asses and do something, rather than making a riot over some poor little kid?
[/QUOTE]
Probably for the same reason yuo vent against them in this message board but don’t actually go to Little Havana and tell them your feelings face to face.
[QUOTE=lalenin]
No kids here thank you, but you must not have understood the gist of what I said. Elian was staying with Juan Manuel’s family in Miami. It was pretty much understood, in Cuba at least, that Elian had come to the US with the express permission of Juan Manuel, and it was only later when Castro decided to use Elian as a political tool that Juan Manuel was forced to claim Elian had left without his permission.
In any case, sooner or later Juan Manuel and Elian will be able to speak for themselves.
[/QUOTE]
You have a cite for this?
It doesn’t matter anyway. Juan Manuel had a right to change his mind.
If you had kids you wouldn’t feel so philosophically cavalier about a mob of assholes preventing you from being able to get to your own child.
[QUOTE=lalenin]
Probably for the same reason yuo vent against them in this message board but don’t actually go to Little Havana and tell them your feelings face to face.
[/QUOTE]
This is lame.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I thought Janet Reno took it way too easy on those people. IMO, she should have tear gassed all those bitches or sprayed them with rubber bulets or both.
[/QUOTE]
The problem there is that she would have possibly endangered Elian.
As for his father allowing him to go to America, um, his mother was going with him.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
But what is the law?
There is a case on the books - Polovchak v. Meese - prompted by a 12 year old kid who defected to America back around 1979. The case states that deportation cannot occur until a court has determined whether the interests of the child are best served by allowing him to defect.
[/QUOTE]
That case involved a 12 year old who clearly stated he did not want to return, period- much different from a six year old with adults he barely knew trying to speak for him. Any attempt to conclude that returning the boy to his closest relative, a loving father, was wrong simply because of American attitudes towards Cuba is insanity.