Obama needs history lesson on Cuba.

The BBQ Pit
81

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
You have a cite for this?

It doesn’t matter anyway. Juan Manuel had a right to change his mind.

If you had kids you wouldn’t feel so philosophically cavalier about a mob of assholes preventing you from being able to get to your own child.
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A cite for what? That Juan Manuel had given permission for Elian to leave Cuba? There isn’t a whole lot of investigative reporting in Cuba, especially of the kind that might call to question the government’s possition, so no.

Look, I really don’t want to get into an Elian discussion, you have no idea how Elianed out I am. Like I said before, sooner or later Elian and Juan Manuel will be able to speak for themselves.

82

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
This is lame.
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Can’t hit a homerun when the pitcher is throwing balls in the dirt.

83

[QUOTE=lalenin]
A cite for what? That Juan Manuel had given permission for Elian to leave Cuba? There isn’t a whole lot of investigative reporting in Cuba, especially of the kind that might call to question the government’s possition, so no.
[/QUOTE]

It’s just something that’s passed around as gospel in your circles, then, is it? Propaganda from your side? Sorry, but you’re no more a disinterested and objective commentator on Cuba than is its government.

84

Had Obama said “Cuba has been isolated all of my life and all but the first 12 years of Senator Clinton’s”, he’d probably be criticized for unnecessarily drawing attention to the fact she’s in her 60s. I have no doubts he knows when Castro took over, or that he meant “for all of our politically aware lives”- I doubt even Hillary was that terribly aware of Cuban social problems when she was 9.

85

Whether Elian should have gone back to Cuba or not, whether Bautista was as bad as Castro or not, the embargo on Cuba makes no sense to anyone outside of the Exile community, and the people who rely on them to deliver Florida. Do we maintain it to stop the spread of Soviet influence? Um… okay, maybe it’s because Castro’s repression is too cruel… unlike all the other repressive dictators we trade freely with. This embargo might have made sense in 1967. Now it is just a sick joke.

So Obama’s understanding of history is just fine, actually, when it concerns what conclusions need to be drawn.

86

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Do you have any kids, Moto? How would you feel if a bunch of radical nutjobs in another country decided take your kid away from you (illegally) because they didn’t like Bush?
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Tell you what, why don’t we just leave your family and mine out of this discussion, 'kay?

I really don’t know what that appeal to emotion adds, and I already allowed that Elian Gonzalez might have been better served returning to Cuba. What I was arguing against was your assertion that things are always so because you say so.

Was there an angry and threatening attitude in Miami? Sure, but there was one in Havana as well, as has been proven quite without a doubt here. They were radical nutjobs as well - or at least they were being driven by a radical nutjob government. And they got the kid moved, didn’t they?

And here you are, crying tears over Miami while Havana gets nothing but a wave of the hand from you.

You fall into that trap - you expect nothing from the Cubans, so you give them a pass. But why should they have a pass? Why should Fidel or Raul be excused at all? It is one thing to demand certain things from us - but you do so while demanding nothing from them.

They’re not stupid, you know - they use this blind spot in your brain to continue to oppress people there. They couldn’t get away with it otherwise.

Fidel used Gonzalez - he portrayed this as a huge victory, another fight Cuba won over the West. He interfered with the boy’s private life to a considerable degree to further this propaganda goal - but of course, no complaint from you. And I know you’re a good dad - I’ve commented as much in other threads.

So let’s leave that part alone, and discuss the rest, okay?

87

[QUOTE=Frank]
It’s just something that’s passed around as gospel in your circles, then, is it? Propaganda from your side? Sorry, but you’re no more a disinterested and objective commentator on Cuba than is its government.
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Call it what you will, it was what was talked about in the streets in Cuba, so if it was propaganda it was much closer to the source than anything you read in Granma.

88

[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
That case involved a 12 year old who clearly stated he did not want to return, period- much different from a six year old with adults he barely knew trying to speak for him. Any attempt to conclude that returning the boy to his closest relative, a loving father, was wrong simply because of American attitudes towards Cuba is insanity.
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I’m not saying there is exact similarity between the cases - just that there was case law stating that the legal process had to play out.

And they played out in a very skewed way - the seizure went down before the appeals process ran out. In the interim, Gonzalez was in seclusion with his father and Cuban officials at the Wye River compound.

89

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Tell you what, why don’t we just leave your family and mine out of this discussion, 'kay?

I really don’t know what that appeal to emotion adds, and I already allowed that Elian Gonzalez might have been better served returning to Cuba. What I was arguing against was your assertion that things are always so because you say so.

Was there an angry and threatening attitude in Miami? Sure, but there was one in Havana as well, as has been proven quite without a doubt here. They were radical nutjobs as well - or at least they were being driven by a radical nutjob government. And they got the kid moved, didn’t they?

And here you are, crying tears over Miami while Havana gets nothing but a wave of the hand from you.

You fall into that trap - you expect nothing from the Cubans, so you give them a pass. But why should they have a pass? Why should Fidel or Raul be excused at all? It is one thing to demand certain things from us - but you do so while demanding nothing from them.

They’re not stupid, you know - they use this blind spot in your brain to continue to oppress people there. They couldn’t get away with it otherwise.

Fidel used Gonzalez - he portrayed this as a huge victory, another fight Cuba won over the West. He interfered with the boy’s private life to a considerable degree to further this propaganda goal - but of course, no complaint from you. And I know you’re a good dad - I’ve commented as much in other threads.

So let’s leave that part alone, and discuss the rest, okay?
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I am not taking a position on either Miami or Cuba. I am taking a position on angry mobs keeping children away from their parents. The politics don’t matter to me. It’s far more simple and basic. You don’t hold children hostage for self-serving political reasons. It doesn’t matter if your opinions are right or wrong. You leave the kids out of it and you don’t keep them away from their rightful parents.

There was nothing unfair about my hypothetical re: your own kids. I was just trying to get you to view the situation as a father instead of as a Republican.

90

Okay then. I’ll answer as fairly as I can.

Like any father, I want my kids to have as good a life as they can possibly have.

Now, I’m not in a position where that means choosing between having them close to me or not - but none of have to go far to meet people with very different stories.

I hope I’m never in a position to have to make such a choice. Now, you can call this a copout all you want - but you claim to be ignoring the “politics” of the situation, and that’s the biggest copout there is.

91

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Ah, the soft bigotry of low expectations. :wink:

I think we have to make a distinction, don’t we? When a demonstration forms in Miami it can be messy, and loud, and rude, but this is a demonstration of free people, and their grievances are their own.

In Havana, these mobs are orchestrated events to further state power by singling out a domestic or foreign scapegoat to blame the regimes troubles upon. The grievances aren’t freely chosen, and neither is the message.

Frankly, given the choice, it isn’t hard to decide which is more “scary”.
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Nope, pretty easy: the mobs in Florida. Because those mobs are in our country, influencing our political process. Certainly, it’s preferrable to the mobs they had in Cuba, but I’m not in Cuba, and am not particularly threatened by the political theater of that country.