Oh Cheney's wife, you want some too? FUCK YOU!

[MovieMogul]

@Voyager

BTW, the Daily Show tonight showed Bush using the S word (sensitive) in a similar context to Kerry’s.

Not only that, but apparently Bush said it to the very same group of people Cheney spoke too the night before.

Now, if only the other news outlets would get their heads out their asses and play up this angle (that is, unless Cheney decides to drop the “sensitivity” criticism–which I’m sure is likely to happen :rolleyes: )

[MrManfrengenfrensen]

@Starving Artist

Well, two things come to mind. One, perhaps what you perceive as our thinking America can do no wrong is really more of a way of looking at it that perceives America as a good country trying to do what’s right for itself, and secondarily for the world, and that when things go don’t work out, i.e. El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, etc., it’s not because we’re a bunch of arrogant, evil, selfish fuck-ups determined to have our way with the world because we’re bigger and stronger than everyone else, but because our best intentions didn’t work out.

This is true in some cases. But in other cases, we have acted on pure economic greed, rather than some altruistic notion of doing what’s right or even some lesser-of-the-evils fight against communism. You mention Iran. As far as I can tell, we toppled their democracy solely to prevent a renegotiation of oil leases that were extracted from them during the colonial period (and yes, Iran wasn’t a colony, per-se, but the British and French did maintain spheres of influence in Iran). This, of course, was acting in our perceived economic interests, but certainly was not doing what was right for the Iranian people. If you can give me an explanation otherwise, I’d be interested, but I just don’t see it.

[John_Mace]

@ZombiesAteMyBrain

Do you really think that Israel isn’t at fault regarding terrorist attacks? Here’s a link to a ‘what if roles were reversed’ article which gives one pause for thought, at least. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/452564.html

Doesn’t matter. Israel is 100% responsible for any civilians it deliberately targets just as the Palestinians who organize and carry out attacks targetted at civilians are 100% responsible for their actions.

[World_Eater]

@John Mace

We don’t bear one iota of responsibility. The terrorists who killed the ~ 3,000 random people on 9/11/01 bear 100% of the responsibility for their actions.

Whether or not Kerry meant to say they don’t, don’t know. I would suspect, however, that if you asked him, he’d agree with my statement, above.

I don’t agree with your statement. Sane or insane, there’s a reason those terrorists did what they did. There’s a reason they’re attacking us and not Canada.

[John_Mace]

@World Eater

I don’t agree with your statement. Sane or insane, there’s a reason those terrorists did what they did. There’s a reason they’re attacking us and not Canada.

Of course there is a reason. But that doesn’t absolve them of any of their responsibility in **choosing ** that action. If they had no choice in the matter, I’d agree with you. But they did and I don’t.

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

@John Mace

Doesn’t matter. Israel is 100% responsible for any civilians it deliberately targets just as the Palestinians who organize and carry out attacks targetted at civilians are 100% responsible for their actions.

And does Israel take 100% responsibility? Hell, no, why should they - America is always right there to veto any pesky UN resolution against them.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html

[Neurotik]

@Starving Artist

Well, two things come to mind. One, perhaps what you perceive as our thinking America can do no wrong is really more of a way of looking at it that perceives America as a good country trying to do what’s right for itself, and secondarily for the world, and that when things go don’t work out, i.e. El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, etc., it’s not because we’re a bunch of arrogant, evil, selfish fuck-ups determined to have our way with the world because we’re bigger and stronger than everyone else, but because our best intentions didn’t work out. When dealing with situations involving people–who are clearly unpredictable creatures–things don’t alway go according to Hoyle. When they don’t, it doesn’t mean we’re assholes; it means things didn’t work out like we hoped.

Uh-huh. And what were our best intentions in toppling the popular, elected governments in Iran and Guatemala and replacing them with dictators and then training their secret police in torture methods? Remind me again what we were hoping for there?

[World_Eater]

@John Mace

Of course there is a reason. But that doesn’t absolve them of any of their responsibility in **choosing ** that action. If they had no choice in the matter, I’d agree with you. But they did and I don’t.

If there’s a reason they’re attacking us, then we ought to address it.

[Apos]

Why do people have such a hard time seeing that responsbility is not a zero-sum game? Someone can be responsible for choosing something, but at the same time, a third party can be responsible for making them more or less likely to choose it. We do this all the time when we try to trick others into doing things we want. Politicians do it all the time when they try to trick people into believing things that are false (like the Cheney’s have made a career out of).

Speaking of which:
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=100480#2

Oops. What a bunch of hypocritical fuckups.

[John_Mace]

@ZombiesAteMyBrain

And does Israel take 100% responsibility? Hell, no…

I never said they did.

@world eater

If there’s a reason they’re attacking us, then we ought to address it.

Absolutely.

@apos

Why do people have such a hard time seeing that responsbility is not a zero-sum game? Someone can be responsible for choosing something, but at the same time, a third party can be responsible for making them more or less likely to choose it.

But that doesn’t change the fact that you, alone, are responsible for your actions.

[World_Eater]

John, you can play nitpick semantics until the cows come home, it doesn’t change cold, hard, reality. Things aren’t going to change until we change.

[rjung]

@spooje

That is simply the other side of the same coin.

How many public figures have been demonized, smeared, or ruined by being branded as “patriotic” by their opponents?

@Starving Artist

One, perhaps what you perceive as our thinking America can do no wrong is really more of a way of looking at it that perceives America as a good country trying to do what’s right for itself, and secondarily for the world, and that when things go don’t work out, i.e. El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, etc., it’s not because we’re a bunch of arrogant, evil, selfish fuck-ups determined to have our way with the world because we’re bigger and stronger than everyone else, but because our best intentions didn’t work out.

Unfortunately, one has to deny huge chunks of history to accomodate that view. When Salvadorian rebels rape nuns and kill priests, it’s hard to dismiss continued U.S. support of said rebels as “good intentions gone awry.”

@Starving Artist

Did you happen to read Liberal’s brilliant parody of Moore’s style, in which he gave MLK the Moore treatment?

Considering the guy is still too cowardly to actually see the film, I don’t think you want to cite him as an example of “brilliance.”

@Starving Artist

This could not have shone a brighter light on the dishonesty inherent in Moore’s way of trying to effect change.

And yet, amazingly enough, despite all the cries of “dishonesty” over Moore’s tactics, his facts remain undisputed.

(Out of curiousity, SA, have you seen “Fahrenheit 9/11”? Or are your claims of Moore’s “dishonesty” coming from secondhand sources?)

[John_Mace]

@World Eater

John, you can play nitpick semantics until the cows come home, it doesn’t change cold, hard, reality. Things aren’t going to change until we change.

I’d say that you are the one nitpicking about semantics. In fact it might be true that we could compleltely prevent terrorist acts by changing our actions. But that still doesn’t make us responsible for the acts.

I’m not arguing for an aggressive policy in the M.E. for regime change. I’d like nothing better than for us to leave them alone. I can recognize their sole responsibilty for their actions and still want us to mind our own business.

[Typo_Negative]

@rjung

How many public figures have been demonized, smeared, or ruined by being branded as “patriotic” by their opponents?

What does ‘patriotic’ have to do with it?

[elucidator]

“My opponent has needlessly slurred me as, and I quote, ’ a man of honesty and integrity’. I rise to defend my public record, the very model of treachery, greed, and sloth…”

[rjung]

@spooje

What does ‘patriotic’ have to do with it?

I wrote, “The problem is that those of us who are trying to make the United States live up to its ideals invariably get branded as ‘unAmerican’ and ‘traitors’ by those folks who think the United States can do no wrong.”

You call that “the other side of the same coin.”

So I’m asking you for a cite for this claim: How many public figures have been demonized, smeared, or ruined by being branded as “patriotic” by their opponents?

Because from where I’m sitting, there are two groups of people: those who try to make the United States live up to its ideals, and those who bash them as “traitors” and “unAmerican” for doing so. There is no “other side of the coin,” as you put it.

[Apos]

@John Mace

But that doesn’t change the fact that you, alone, are responsible for your actions.

Your sentance is meaningless. There is no “alone” in responsibility. Either you are responsible for your actions or you are not. But either way, other people can also be responsible for your actions.

[Typo_Negative]

@rjung

I wrote, “The problem is that those of us who are trying to make the United States live up to its ideals invariably get branded as ‘unAmerican’ and ‘traitors’ by those folks who think the United States can do no wrong.”

You call that “the other side of the same coin.”

So I’m asking you for a cite for this claim: How many public figures have been demonized, smeared, or ruined by being branded as “patriotic” by their opponents?

Because from where I’m sitting, there are two groups of people: those who try to make the United States live up to its ideals, and those who bash them as “traitors” and “unAmerican” for doing so. There is no “other side of the coin,” as you put it.

Are you honestly calling all Republicans ignorant and evil? Are only liberal candidates demonized? As you have just demonized virtually everyone who does not agree with you? I sense a tendency to paint all with too wide a brush. By other side of the coin, I meant that both sides do the same shit, they just use different terms. Possibly, I have misused a phrase. Sorry about that.

To hold on the idea that there are only “us good guys” and “those evil vile pukes over there” seems counter-productive to finding solutions to me. And liberals and conservatives alike are holding fast to that idea. And yes, we dems are doing it too.

BTW, who was ruined by being called unamerican or traitor?

[rjung]

@spooje

Are you honestly calling all Republicans ignorant and evil?

Considering I didn’t even use the word “Republican” in my post, I think you’re inferring waaaaaaaaay too much here.

@spooje

Are only liberal candidates demonized?

Nah, I’m sure many moderates have been demonized in the same way as well.

@spooje

And yes, we dems are doing it too.

I’m unaware of any recent Democratic politicians smearing their opponents as “traitors” or “unAmerican,” but I wouldn’t claim that such a beast doesn’t exist.

@spooje

BTW, who was ruined by being called unamerican or traitor?

You mean like Max Cleland in particular, or anyone left of Bush in general?

[Typo_Negative]

@rjung

, or anyone left of Bush in general?

Could you be more specific regarding Cleland as ‘ruined’? Is it possible that we are using that word differently? Surely you are not suggesting that Ann Coulter has ruined anyone politically. If you are, I think you may be vastly overrating her influence.