Oil Hits $55/Barrel: Time To Trade In That SUV?

Great Debates
61

Exactly. My job is “close” to home, being only 15 miles away. However, if I couldn’t drive there, I would be screwed. My endurance on a bike doesn’t extend beyond a few miles (I suppose this might improve with forced pratice) and my average walking speed is 4mph. There are no buses between here and the city I work in, although there’s a limited bus route in the city itself - not that buses pass within miles of my workplace. The only bus routes at all in this state that I know of are centered around colleges. Most people can’t afford to take a Taxi to and from work, and there aren’t many of them in rural areas, either.

As I understand it, things in large sections of Europe are either closer to where people live and/or they can take buses or trains to where they’d like to go. Most of the US, particularly the Northeast, wasn’t carefully planned so it sprawls and spawls forcing people to drive if they’d like to make a living, a living which is less adaquate with every gas hike that causes the price of not only getting to work to go up, but the prices of everything sold to go up as well… If the prices of gasoline were in a vaccum and didn’t affect the prices of everything else, you’d probably hear less complaining. But they’re not.

62

My last post was a bit harsh. My apologies…kanicbird.

I am interested in what may be the best energy storage.

63

Yes, although large-scale production opportunities do not yet exist, and the economics do not yet exist.

Here’s one paper that’s useful on biodiesel: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=658310

Here’s a paper on the net energy balance of corn ethanol: http://www.ethanolrfa.org/aer721.pdf

64

No apologies needed. My point was as I understand the needs of contractors I would not invest in such a hybrid if given the opportunity. I see it as a mismatch of the item and the people you are marketing to. As pointed out above farmers might have more of such a need.

I don’t pretent to know the onsite demands at a construction site for 110/220 V power, but I do see it as needed as long as work is going on (until grid power is available). If it is part of a SUV and that SUV is also needed to make trips to get items for the project there is going to be delays in construction.

Again it might be a ‘killer app’, but I personally don’t see it as such. I suspect that it may catch on more with other market segments.

This is not pro/anti SUV, just I don’t see it as the hybrid to break out of the nitch market. At best just create a new one.

Going back to pneumatic hybrids. Some of the systems proposed consists of adding a compressor/air engine to 2 or 4 wheels controled by a computer, others that would feed the engine directly. In the 4 wheel configuration it should be possiable for a 2 wheel drive car/truck/SUV to use the driven wheels compressors to drive the non-drive wheels air engine creating a regenerative 4WD system.

Also I don’t see how storing compressed air is any more dangerous then compressed natural gas.

This is too broad to answer. A nice energy storage is the one that god left for us under the desert and ANWR, all we have to do is pump it out and burn it. But I know that’s not what you ment.

Some energy storage devices:

Batteries
Air pressure (or other gas or even gas/liquid)
Flywheel ‘batteries’ (basically a combo motor/generator where the energy is stored in the spinning armature at something like 30,000 RPM’s IIRC)
Hydrogen
Each has it’s advantages and disadvantages/ Air pressure can be stored indefinitely and can be released quickly, also I believe storage efficiencies are high. Batteries can hold a charge for a good amount of time, but efficiency drops off as the charge approaches 100%, Flywheel batteries would loose energy over time and could cause a gyroscopic effect. Hydrogen can be stored indefinitely and has high energy value, but is inefficient to make.

I think a bigger issue is to design a car around a direct chemical to motion engine without going through a conversion to heat along the way. Hybrids just build around an inherent inefficient core (IC engine) and are missing the boat completely.

65

Another energy storage device is a standard flywheel. Which would allow short term energy storage and seem to be an efficent way to handle stop and go traffic.

One of the hybrid issues pointed out is the heater/a/c caused a big drop in mpg (BTW pneumatic systems could be used for heating and a/c). This may require a redesign of such systems from the ground up. Heating might be converted to heat pumps and there may be a phase change heat (or ‘cold’) storage device

66

That right there is a Pit-worthy post, in my estimation. What’s the corollary there, that you’re happy to fuck over the poor-bastard in the other car that couldn’t afford some land-tank and “win” that collision?

Combined with the point that we’ve gone over and over again on this board, that SUV drivers are actually at a higher fatalaty risk than car drivers due to the SUV’s role-over risk, how exactly do you justify this stupidity.

67

Then please take it to the pit. I personally don’t want to drive a small car for self defense reasons. Again if I am attacked by a vechical I want to win too. There are a lot of parents who buy they kids SUV’s, and those kids don’t know how to drive. They will kill people and their parents will be glad they bought their kids the SUV since their prodigy are still alive. Personally I don’t think anyone should drive a large SUV till they are deamed responsibile enough to handle drinking.

I beleive that none of the SD threads were conclusive and non had figures on a Hummer vs Pruis at 60 mph head on. But lets cut right to the chase, and be totally honest, which car/SUV would you choose to be in? Also rollover does not equal death.

I think what would make people give up their SUV at a drop of a hat is to treat them as trucks. This means no SUV’s on parkways, no parking on residential streets overnight, no SUV’s on residential streets except for local delivery, no SUV’s in the left lane on many interstates, SUV’s restricted to truck routes, parking restrictions, such as no SUV’s parked in the spot closest tot he curb or driveways (to help visability).

A side issue is many SUV’s can come standard with tinted windows. The only chance many car drivers to see the road to look through the windows of the SUV, but with tinting this is very hard to do.

68

threemae, if you think it’s Pit worthy, go for it. If we’re picking vehicles that which to protect us, I’m going for the biggest thing I can find, and still suit my needs.

I’m a pretty defensive driver in general. With that in mind, I think it’s a fair assumption that should I be involved in an auto accident, it will likley be someone else’s fault (of course, I could still cause one, but I am thinking this is less likley than someone else causing it). The corrollary is that I will be more likley to escape uninjured or less injured in the event of an accident, if the mass of my car is greater than the mass of the other guy’s car. I wouldn’t be happy if another is injured, I would be happy if I am not.

Can you demonstrate that the risk of injury is less in a small car vs a big car, than compared to being in a big car vs a big car?

69

Sheesss. How angry people get about other peoples needs.

Re the idea of the car with a flywheel. A large spinning mass like that will prevent any sudden input.

Like turning.

Kaniicbird - I doubt that your idea of hi-pressure air is a good energy storage mediiam for a car.

The more I think about it the less it makes sense.

A 3000 PSI SUBA tank holds 80 cubic feet of air. Ever seen how cautious divers are around a tank? I have, I’ve been diving for 20 years. I’d rather not have one in my car.

20 gallons of gas every day, no prob. An 80? um no thanks.

70

First off, I thought this was the Pit being an SUV thread and all, and all of my other open threads were in the pit, so apologies for any language that might have offended GD’ers.

But anyway, everyone thinks that they’re a good driver, it will always be the other person’s fault, etc. This may be true for you, but I just cringe whenever I hear this rational behind choosing an SUV. I’m not an SUV hater, and I don’t mind if people choose to spend their own money that way, but everyone thinks that they’re above average, even in driving. If you’re only choosing the size of your car in terms of “winning” over others then it just sickens me that anyone would put their own safety ahead of others with the intention of “winning” auto-accidents and having a vehicle that will destroy other cars without suffering their own serious damage.

Maybe my squemishness revolves around the mother’s who got their high-school kids SUV’s so that they could be safe. I dated a girl in HS who’s mother gave her a Range-Rover because she wanted her “to be safe,” but she was a terror on the road to others, almost running over two Corollas just when I was with her. If anything, since she was the bad driver, she should have had a smaller than normal car so that if she injured anyone, it would be herself. I just love the attitude that as long as you and your own immediate family’s safety is helped, everyone else can just hope for the best. At any rate, the added roll-over risk of SUV’s makes them less safe than regular sedans, although they are indeed better off in direct collisions.

Here are some stats, even though a cursory use of the search function will reveal many threads where this has been hammered out:


From the DOT- 300+ pages but page 3 summarizes things nicely

http://www.suv.org/safety.html
-An anti-SUV site, but it still lays out the basics fairly well

71

enipla

I’m not the only one who though of a pneunamic-hybrid

http://www.aircaraccess.com/history.htm

this one is basically a discussion of the idea like we are having:

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Gas_2fpneumatic_20hybrid

Again I think a tank of compressed air at 3000-5000 PSI could be safer then carrying around that pressure of CNG.

Using this type of drive system could allow some unique advantages. No starter needed, engine can be much smaller (2 stroke air boost), engine can be supercharged w/ the compressed air, so engine can be still smaller. Compressing air makes heat, expanding absorbs heat - A/C and heating needs met.

72

Exactly my point, with these people on the road I want something to defend myself. I personally think new drivers should not be allowed to drive such a tank, because of their higher accident rate. And I agree that we all thing we drive better then the other guy. But we realise we take stupid chances, as does the other guy, and ---- happens. I personally am afraid of driving a small car, this is one reason I like to drive a SUV and I feel my reason is valid.

BTW: New results of side impact crash tests:** 14 of 16 small cars are rated poor in test that simulates crash with SUV; none of the 16 is good March 6, 2005** news release
from:
http://www.iihs.org/

Released March 6, 2005 (yesterday)

While it might be safer to hit a immovable object with a small car then a SUV, it is far safer to hit a small car while driving a SUV then the other way around.

Going back to the Pneumatic/hybrid system. I was looking for a link but couldn’t find it, but IIRC a company is retrofitting trucks with such a system. It consists of 2 tanks, one large low pressure and one small high pressure. Perhaps a different fluid was used instead of air that might have a phase change. It would work by a seperate compressor/airmotor and would fill on deceleration and empty for acceleration.

With a air/gas hybrid you should have no trouble having the IC engine stop when the car stops as air pressure can start the car alone. With a stick shift you might not have to press the clutch at a stop, just let the engine stop.

73

Right, but that doesn’t negate the fact that you’re still less safe in an SUV. The actual fatalaty rates are simply higher. You wouldn’t drive around in a car that has reactive armor in it so that you’ll “win” every collision but be at a much higher risk of injuring or killing yourself when you crash into a tree.

Basically, you’ve compromised the safety of others and gained nothing for yourself except for some vague sense of satisfaction about “winning” an auto-acident, which other like minded people like yourself can respond to by buying even bigger, more dangerous cars for their precious little chitlin’, and we’ve entered an endless, pointless cycle that really does nothing to improve safety.

Congratulations.

74

You can point to all the news articles you wish, but honestly I simply don’t and won’t believe it. I don’t feel safe in a small car, which is too bad as I would love to get over 30 mpg. I personally think there is a bias against SUV’s which effect how reporters report (ever hear of Dan Rather?). Laws of physics are against your statement that actual fatality rates are higher (in SUV’s), sorry laws of physics are not politically correct (unlike reporting).

I can’t control what other people drive, nor can I control how they drive. The only thing I can control is what and how I drive. When I choose I have to consider what others are doing as that does effect my choice.

I am entitled to my own opinion as to what I wish to drive and my personal reasons for it, also I am entitled to not believe everything I hear on a news report, especially after the Dan Rather incident became public. The vehicle I choose to drive actually scored the highest safety rating the Gov’t grants for a vechical.

75

SUV’s were a bad idea from the start because they combined a performance engine with a high center of gravity vehicle. I can understand why people like them. You sit up high, haul stuff, and zip around. It’s just a bad combination. It’s easy to haul stuff in a trailer so that can be eliminated from the list of useful attributes. You can buy a 4 x 8 ft trailer that folds up and stores against a wall in the garage. That is more room than in an SUV and the savings in fuel is worth the inconvenience of hooking it up to a more efficient vehicle.

I would steer SUV people toward something like a turbo Volvo or a Dodge Magnum station wagon to get similar characteristics. They will giver better gas mileage and performance. It won’t help those who need a tall 4X4 for heavy snow but the percentage of people who truly need this is low. If I was a Doctor in Mid-state NY I would want a 4X4 SUV. It would be neat if they made one with height adjustment for the few days it is really needed. It’s certainly easy to do.

Yes, an SUV does well in a car-on-car crash but they are also involved in a LOT more rollovers. Most cars will spin out when in a bad cornering situation because of the center of gravity. We must have a couple of SUV rollovers a week in my area. Many people are killed in the rollovers (by ejection) especially kids. For this reason, seatbelts are even more important in an SUV. Also, the more weight that sits behind the rear axle the more likely a rollover will occur because of the weight shift when braking and cornering. Watch a video on extended vans and you will understand why. Keep that in mind when loading up an SUV with stuff.

I don’t begrudge anyone their choice of vehicle but an SUV is not the solution for most driving needs. They sell well because they are big and fun to drive. Ford has a hybrid SUV on the market so there are alternatives in the works. Others will follow. I expect people to change their buying habits when gas goes over $3 a gallon.

76

The thing that scares me most about the proliferation of SUVs is the mentality that you must drive an SUV to improve your survivability in an auto accident – against other SUVs.

MAD was a stupid idea in the '60s; bringing it to the highways doesn’t make it any less stupid.

77

I agree the mentality thet SUVs are “safe” is a total illusion-many of the horrifying accidents you see are SUV rollovers. Also, people think that 4WD is better in snow-yes it is, but if you drive at 65 MPH in a raging snowstorm, you will have problems…after every snowstorm, you see tons of SUVs sliding off the roads.
As for driving them-I don’t like them-you rock on those big marshmallow-like tires, and have absolutely no road feel. And, you rarely have time to correct (when the weight shift happens that causes you to spin out/roll over).
Judging from the JILLIONS of ads pushing SUVs, the dealers must be having trouble selling them…and the financial incentives are getting better and better-you can buy an Exploder with no money down, zero interest 6 year loan, plus cash back! The high gasoline prices arehaving some effect.

78

Yes I have heard that the really big ones were not going like hotcakes anymore since gas got to around the $2 level.

I agree, it scared me right into a SUV.

To some degree this is true, but I thing a downsized SUV will be the choice, not a small car. Once you have that capability it’s hard to go back. I think the only way to chang from gas cars/SUV’s would be a unstable gas supply. If there are times you just can’t buy gas you will see alternatives and conversions.

Diesel cars would become popular as you could use home heating oil as fuel, which should be more available, and you can store it (though illegal due to tax reasons). Compressed Natural gas (and I assume LP gas) can be used in conventional gas cars without too much modification. It is also likely we will see bigger gas tanks and people filling up more jerry cans with gas when it’s available.

79

Can someone please explain the mechanics of an SUV rollover to me? I’m not very timid on the freeway, but I can’t imagine anything that might make my CRV roll over. Are people trying to make 90 degree turns while going 50+ miles per hour? I can’t imagine this is a city driving problem due to the speeds involved…can someone please clarify, or point a resource for it?

-stonebow, whose Honda CRV is the single best car buy he’s ever made, gas prices or no

80

Basically conditions that would cause a low to the ground car to skid out will cause a high center of gravity to roll over. Think of a brick, placed on a board in the way it’s shortest dimention is the height. Now lift the board on a angle, the brick will slide off. Repeat it with the brick on it’s end and the brick will fall (roll) istead of sliding.