OK Dammit, Let's Get One Thing Straight... Ermm, I Mean Established...

PEOPLE’S EXHIBIT A:

Somebody I’m friends with on Facebook posts this on an LGBT message board: “I made my decision not to go on hormones, and that was a personal choice”.

One of the first replies posted was: “Honey I’m sorry… actually I’m not… if you are not taking the steps to become a woman… you are not trans… you are simply a feminine gay man… stop confusing people and making it harder for real Trans people.”
PEOPLE’S EXHIBIT B:

On a different message board, I am replying to someone who has referred to me dismissively as “a cisgendered straight guy who really wants to be a sexual minority so he can be part of a movement”.

I reply tersely: “No”. He quotes that and replies “Yes”.

I write: “Being a straight male — being heterosexual — isn’t just ‘you have boy parts and your sexual attraction is for people who have girl parts’. (If you disagree with that you aren’t leaving any room for a transgender lesbian, who, prior to surgery, has ‘boy parts’. Maybe you and your friends consider transgender lesbians to be ‘straight males’ up until they transition, I don’t know)”

And to THAT he replies: "I would consider Trans people as the Gender they feel they are, whether they’ve had surgery or not.

That isn’t at all relelvant to your case because YOU AREN’T TRANS! Transgendered people try to live as their preferred gender to the best their social and financial circumstances permit. If they can, they will fully transition, though sadly that isn’t possible for a lot of people. You aren’t doing that."
PEOPLE’S EXHIBIT C:
On a Facebook-based chat, I have this exchange with yet another person:

Other Person: Your [sic] Gay…A man to have female tendency is a GAY Man how hard is that???..my gawed!!!
Allan Hunter: Not hard at all, not for male-bodied people. Which is why I don’t identify as GAY, I’m a male-bodied girl who is attracted to female-bodied people. If I identified as gay, people would assume it meant I was attracted to MALE-bodied people, now wouldn’t they?

Other Person: Well you can’t be Lesbian…

Other Person: Your straight and you like women

Allan Hunter: I don’t identify as lesbian because I am male, and lesbians in general do not consider male-bodied people to share that identity with them.

I don’t identify as a straight man because I am a girl, or a sissy or a feminine person if you prefer, and straight males have made it loudly and specifically apparent that they don’t consider people like me to be men, nor do I wish to be seen as one of them. Also, “straight” means more than “people with female equipment and people with male equipment getting it on”. Heterosexuality is gendered, with specific and polarized expectations of the male and the female person – a “man” role and a “woman” role. I’m a woman or girl and both my identity and the relationships and partners available to me are quite different.

Of course it may be your intention to call “bullshit” on this and say “we don’t want your kind and do not consider that you belong”. I’m kind of used to that. Rather than just putting my fingers in my ears and saying “no ur wrong”, I’d rather go into this with you if you’re so inclined. Why is my identity invalid and yours valid? Couldn’t I just as easily say “You’re a woman like any other, there are no ‘gay people’, you’re just a woman, that’s all there are is women and men, and you’re making a big deal out of irrelevant things that don’t matter”?? {edited: changed gender references}
Other Person: I just said you can’t be Lesbian!!!

Allan Hunter: Other Person: I agree. I can’t be lesbian. I can’t be gay. I can’t be a straight man. I’m not bi. And transgender doesn’t fit either. It’s something else.

Allan Hunter: The female people I’m attracted to tend to be butch. Some identify as guys / bois / men. If anyone is going to be the top it isn’t going to be me. It’s different from being a straight guy, trust me.

Other Person: Then that’s your problem…since you strongly believe your A women…Then you need to get a sex change…let’s see if that makes you happy.

PEOPLE’S EXHIBIT C:
Back in January, I sent my standard query letter to a publisher that publishes LGBT titles. My cover letter explains that THE STORY of Q is specifically a genderqueer coming-out story. In fact, it was roughly the same cover letter that I posted here back in Sept 2014.

In due course, the editor wrote back: “I finished this yesterday, and after discussing it with the publisher, we’re going to have to take a pass on this. It’s not a transgender book and definitely not a gay book, so finding a large enough readership to make this economically viable would be tough.”

I send this reply, cc’ing my publicist, John Sherman, whom I’ve been working with: “That is correct. I thought you knew that. It’s something else.”

My publicist replies to me, responding to my cc: “Yes, it’s something else. Could the subtitle perhaps have been the first clue? Jeez.”

** ahem ** [clears throat]

Let’s get one thing str… I mean, let’s NOT get one thing straight, but let’s at least get one thing established, dammit.

I’m not trying to “join” an existing sexual or gender identity club. I am not submitting an application to be approved and welcomed as if this were the Rainbow Homeowner’s Association and Community Watch Board or something. When I say “this is my identity” I mean “this is who I am”, and you can accept it or you can reject it; you can care, or you can NOT care, but you don’t really get a vote on it.
In second grade I was a person. I was a person who perceived myself to be like the girls. I was a person who was perceived by the other kids as being like the girls. I was a person who was proud to be like the girls despite the expectation of the boys (in particular) and the teachers (sometimes) that I would be embarrassed and ashamed of that. I won’t say I didn’t need and did not seek anyone’s approval – I wanted the girls to accept me and let me play with them. Some did. I was out to prove I was worthy of their acceptance and approval despite being a boy. I won’t claim that, in 2nd grade, I had an understanding of sex and gender as two different things – I didn’t, not like that. But I understood that I was LIKE the girls and I wanted to be PERCEIVED that way; I understood that I was NOT like the (other) boys and I did what I could to distinguish myself from them because I did not like being treated as if I were one of them. Who I was had more to do with being “like the girls” than with the fact that I “was a boy”. I was between 6 and 7 years old when I was in second grade, and that was how I understood matters at the time.

What that means – ONE of the things that that means – is that in third grade and thereafter I was a person WHO HAD THAT HISTORY, a person who already thought of myself in those terms. Hence it was very much a part of my IDENTITY.

So all of my experiences from then on were the experiences of a person WITH THAT IDENTITY.

I didn’t invent it as an adult upon reading about being modern gender identities and LGBTQIA people. Do you get that? I’m not just flinging an angry retort in your direction when I say “you don’t get a vote on my identity”, although yes, encountering people who attempt to negate my identity does make me angry; I’m not in the process of trying on this identity to see if it fits and to see how other people will or won’t accept it.

Instead, this identity is who I have been to myself for over half a century. There’s no original or “normal” or prior identity I can revert back to were someone to (hypothetically) convince me that I am not really as I describe. My lifetime experiences have been shaped by my perception of myself, just as yours have shaped your experiences.

My adaptive coping mechanisms are the adaptive coping mechanisms of a girl who behaves as a girl who has been through a bunch of specific experiences that people who aren’t male girls seldom go through. Those adaptive coping mechanisms reflect the priorities and sensibilities of a girl whose context of operation include

• being in a male body

• being in a social environment where people expect male-bodied people to be masculine and boyish

• being in a social environment that, to the extent it understands and recognizes the possibility of male people being girlish at all, is hostile and contemptuous towards male girls

Those developed coping mechanisms channeled my subsequent experiences: some possible things that could have happened ended up NOT being among my experiences because of how I handled things, and some possible things ended up happening precisely because of how I handled stuff. And of course I was further shaped by those experiences.
Thank you. I’ll climb off this soapbox now. This rant has been simmering in the background for awhile now.
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This is a repost of a blog post. Cleared with the mods in advance.

Cant you just say you are “different” and leave it at that?

Is there a GBLTLDR community you could apply to?

The premise that girls are one way and boys another, and that if you feel certain ways or like certain things it’s your “girl” or “boy” coming out—isn’t this all buying into the very rigid stereotypes you’re trying to escape? Be who you are, without classifying each bit as boy or girl. Integrate it all within yourself and reject labels and stereotypes, because they’re frustrating and limiting.

Yeah, I see where you’re coming from. Don’t get me wrong, you’re not (as I see it) on the wrong track or anything.

I’m trying to talk to the surrounding social world about a phenomenon. I’m not simply trying to come to grips, personally, with who I am. That’s an important distinction. And in order to describe the phenomenon in question, I need to make these differentiations. To explaint to the world some ideas about a category of people who don’t typically get to simply be “who they are” without a lot of interference and judgmental attitudes.

You too. Didn’t mean to leave you out. Read previous post and please consider it to be a response to yours as well.

Have you ever considered the possibility that in this ontological argument you have created about what it means to be “male” you are just wrong at worst or simply inaccurate at best? Not that your sexuality is “wrong” or your feminine leaning orientation is “wrong”, but that you, personally have constructed an ontological paradigm that no one else of reasonable intelligence uses as a meaningful or useful reference for defining real world masculinity?

There are plenty of cis-gendered men who have traits you might ascribe to female or feminine. I’m a large balding, burly man who likes girls, technology and making things, but I’m also a prize winning poet who has no use for organized sports and occasionally buys and flips Kate Spade and Coach purses on ebay. I like to use color in my watches and clothing and would be a lot more fashion forward than I am now if I weighed less and could pull it off. These are all more girly than masculine traits, but I’m not gay or attracted sexually to men at all.

I also have female friends who love organized sports, hunting, tractor pulls, drive raised picked up trucks (purchased with their own money) and dressing in flannel but also have kids and are absolutely cis-gendered.

You’ve made up this “well society says” cartoon version of real world sexuality that a few troglodytes might buy into, but from every reasonable angle you are simply a heterosexual man who has a strongly feminine personality. These people exist, lots of them to varying degrees. Why do you need a category all your own when you already fit well within the parameters and existing bell curve of sexual behavior and orientation?

Based on your OP in this thread you are apparently being told the same thing by lots of different people with varying degrees of politeness and impoliteness.

’ I’m not simply trying to come to grips, personally, with who I am.’
Really? Seriously? Every word you post would seem to scream otherwise, in my most humble opinion. (But I’m sure that’s just me!)

Often. Along with other parallel worries and notions of how the understanding I’ve arrived at might be distorted, peculiarly emphasized, “wrong”. And yet it keeps making a compelling amount of sense to me and I keep feeling, rather strongly, that it will resonate with some other people whose experience is or was similar to mine.

Yep. When does it cease to be an adjective sort of thing, an additional modifying descriptive that hangs onto “straight guy” (or even just “boy” or “man”) and instead become a fundamental IDENTITY?

I have said on occasion that “straight” means – pretty much by definition – that you don’t have to come out. What happened to me, personally, is that I had to come out, to myself (to comprehend what was going on in my iife, why things had happened (or not happened) as they had, and to people around me (some of whom were gently but perpetually prodding me to accept myself and come out, but also as a form of mating call, the beginning of a search for folks who would specifically want someone with this peculiar mismatch of body and gendered characteristics).

Yes. And I am, in this endeavor (in this blog post in particular) replying to you folks. Y’all tend to think you know all the boxes that people logically ought to fit in, and see no reason to add the conceptual box I’m describing. I’m telling you there is ample reason and you need to reevaluate your position.

:smiley: I can see where it would come across that way, for sure! No winning on that one, just different losing options: I have often castigated myself for spending so many years just seeking “personal solutions”, quietly seeking and finding partners (and slowly getting better at recognizing potentially good matches, good long-term chemistry) and not putting any energy into speaking out, keeping my promise to myself to speak out.

Yes, of course the act of speaking out practically screams that I am in the midst of thrashing with the issue. shrugs Old news. Feminists constantly had (and have) to face the assumption that they are raising these issues about gendered behavior and norms and expectations and the societal “cattle prods” that keep people in line and penalize (hmm, that word…) those who vary, PRECISELY because they personally are wrestling with who they are and sorting out their own personal angst about it all. It’s not really separable. As Carol Hanisch famously said, “The personal is political”.

I think you may have a point with the current meme that a transgender person HAS TO completely transition or they aren’t transgender. Telling a transgender person they HAVE TO take hormones and have surgery is as bad as telling them they CAN’T. The point of transitioning to my mind is not to hammer that person into a new pigeonhole, it’s to bring them to a point they are as comfortable with their physical body as it is possible for them to be. The transitioning person is allowed to say “enough” at any time, or should be allowed to do so.

That said - I think I agree to at least some extent that you are not transgender. You are genderqueer - which, given the subtitle of your book, is how you label yourself. As I understand it, genderqueer is related to transgender, but is not the same thing.

At the risk of being wrong, I’m going to throw out that while your gender identity is at odds with your physical body you do not suffer from the gender dysphoria that leads the transgender folks to undergo transition. You are not troubled enough by the situation to go through the trouble and upheaval of making that change. Which, to me, is just fine. Your body, your life. But it really cranks the handle of some other folks, as you know better than I do. Lots of people want everyone to fit into neat categories. That’s not real life, though.

“Y’all tend to think you know all the boxes that people logically ought to fit in, and see no reason to add the conceptual box I’m describing.”

I’m trying to tell you to think outside of the box. Throw the box out. Stop fighting with people over which box to fit in. Of course many people feel safe and comfortable when they can neatly label and fit everyone (and themselves, often) into boxes. The box is not for all of us, though, and we find it unhealthy and limiting.

With all due respect not a single thing you have posted in this thread makes a compelling case for you needing a unique sexual identification category. A behaviorally feminine man whose sexual attraction is directed toward women is an outlier on the scatter plot of human sexual orientation and identity, but it’s still well within the envelope. Lots of heterosexually oriented people have a scatter plot of genderqueer traits in their personalities to various degrees. People falling within these parameters have been around forever.

I get everyone wants to have something special, different and all their own but IMO you are chasing a distinction that is (real world) already covered. This whole thing is starting to sound like you chasing a medical or psychological diagnosis so you can say “Yes! This! This is what I am. This defines me and explains it all! It all makes sense now! This validates me!” … and really it doesn’t.

While a statistical minority there are still lots of people just like you who are heterosexual but whose behavioral and social association preferences that are skewed toward the opposite sex. These juxtapositions may be annoying culturally to some conservative traditionalists and they may even be annoying personally to progressives if, for example, a cisgendered progressive woman still wants a behaviorally traditional “manly man” for a partner. But so what? Just let your freak flag fly. Is someone coming over and handing you a nametag that say “Validated Genderqueer” really going to change anything for you in any meaningful way?

Maybe, but I as I think I said before, if you keep adding more and labels and boxes, it looses all meaning.

I don’t claim to “know” all the boxes, but I don’t think there’s any good reason for me to understand all the boxes that are out there. If you tell me you’re an X, my response will be, “Why are you telling me this?” I agree that knowing you’re an X is important if we’re both attracted to each other and you want me to understand your preferences and proclivities. But outside of this very narrow context, I don’t care about you being an X. I’m not going to tell you that this box is wrong or that you should be ashamed for identifying herself this way. But I’m not going to pretend that your box or any other box is important to me.

(My bold) Doesn’t everyone do that? I mean, I am a tomboyish girl. I have no gender dysphoria, I am not transgender, but I like doing guy stuff. Not most organized sports, but fixing stuff? I love when I have successfully fixed something. I am the person in the household who mows the lawn, etc. I hate most “girly” stuff, and that’s ok. It doesn’t need a new box, or a new label, but I still spent time dating, getting better at recognizing whether or someone would be a good partner for me, etc. I do say that in my next marriage, I want to be the husband. In some ways I already am- I take on a lot of the more masculine chores, that sort of thing.

I don’t need a new box for me. I found a partner who is a straight man who likes more girly stuff, and we balance out pretty well. He doesn’t need a new box either.

I think you want to make it easier for more male-bodied girly types to be comfortable in their pwn skin, but I don’t know that a new box for them is what’s needed, either. Maybe they do, I don’t know. Maybe they just need to accept that there’s nothing wrong for a male bodied person to like girly things and not be called names for liking what they like. Maybe everyone needs to be less focused on traditional stereotypes of what men do and what women do, and that will result in happier people.

Or maybe I am just full of it.

You know, I just don’t see anything wrong with doing this. Identity is a personal thing, and saying “This is me!” seems almost overwhelmingly benign. If it helps you know who you are, keeps you from being pigeonholed into things that you aren’t, and helps find the people that you want in your life, then what’s the harm?

Something like this has been my reaction to many an AHunter3 thread.

I don’t know enough about people to try to tell them what they are, or what box they live in, or what they have to do or not to to inhabit which box. I have no argument, nor any particular need to argue. Be what makes you happy, if you can.

Yeah, this is the “why” of it, all right. I don’t know how many people will benefit from this identity being “out there” & available to consider, but I do know that when I was figuring it all out by myself I would have appreciated some kind of portrayal or description that resonated with me and made me feel less like I was the only one and that there were no personal solutions for me. And because of that, I promised myself that I’d make it so that people coming along behind me would not have to do without that kind of resource.