Sexual Orientation

In my talks, such as the talk I gave last week in Manhattan, I mention Jeff. Jeff is a gay entertainer; he does a show at the microphone where he intersperses personal anecdotes with edgy humor. Jeff, like me, is and has always been a feminine person, more like one of the girls than like one of the boys. He talks about this at the microphone, about himself growing up in a small town in the midwest, about watching the ballerinas on TV and wanting to be graceful and elegant like that himself. “See, I knew even then”, he says. “I was only about eight. Me and my sisters all wanted leotards and tutus.”

It has become a subject on which one’s politics may be assessed for correctness, this question of sexual orientation and gender identity, and we should all pause, as if for station identification, and make the ritual disclaimer that gender identity is an entirely different thing from sexual orientation. It is true. They are not two different ways of saying the same thing. They are different. You can vary either one without varying the other and you can have any combination of the two that you can conceivably imagine.

But, for Jeff, being feminine—being like his sisters—is not a different thing from being gay. When he is at the microphone describing his days in high school and his experiences coming out, he makes no distinction between things that happened the way they did because he was a feminine person and things that took place because he was attracted to other males. The people surrounding him, reacting to him, didn’t make any such distinction because to them being a gay male and being a girlishly feminine male were not separate things, and nothing in Jeff’s own personal experience gave him a lot of reason to need to make such a distinction either.

So discussing gender and sexual orientation as if they had NO EFFECT on each other seems to be an unnecessary and unproductive interpretation of the maxim that they aren’t the same thing.

Let’s be blunt, shall we? The historically prevailing counterposition has not merely been that they are basically the same thing, it is that they are the same thing and that thing is sexual orientation. The people who deny that gender identity is a separate thing are usually trying to claim that it all boils down to sexual orientation, that being differently gendered is just a batch of fancy-schmantzy word salad and that if you strip the fancy words away you’ve got straight people and gay folks, nothing else to see here.

And a lot of the politically correct restating-ad-infinitum of the fact that they aren’t the same thing is basically a frustrated denial to that counterposition.

In this posting I’m going to upend both assertions. They’re both oversimplifications and they’re both wrong.

Chloe is another feminine person. She has a lot in common with Jeff and with me. She has a bit more in common with Jeff because she, too, has a same-sex attraction. She’s a lesbian.

Not everyone accepts her word for it that she’s a lesbian. A fair number of guys find her interesting and cute. She’s a feminine female. They keep smiling at her when she thanks them for whatever complimentary things they’ve said but declines their requests and offers, explaining that she’s a lesbian. They keep smiling and they keep making requests and offers.

That would be annoying enough but except when it verges into hostility and violence she doesn’t particularly care what a bunch of guys think. If only that were all there were to it! But she also gets flack sometimes from women. She’s been accused of playing at being a lesbian because it’s edgy and trendy, and told that she’s obviously keeping her options open. And once or twice she’s been told that because she passes as straight, she’s got it easy. And that she’s not committed to the lifestyle. Chloe indicates that she is totally committed to living her life as a lesbian, it’s who she is, she’s known who she was attracted to since before she got her first period.

Chloe and I have some things in common that we don’t share with Jeff. People have tended to question my sexual orientation, too. Neither of us fit the stereotypes for folks whose attraction is towards female people. We both have had people indicating that they know better, that they know how we really like it. Or how we’d really like it if the right male-bodied person gave us the right experiences.

Our gender expression affects perceptions of our sexual orientation. Since both gender and sexual orientation are social currency, things that we don’t just hold in our heads but communicate to other people, other people’s perception of us in these parameters is part of our identity, whether we like it or not. We can get good at filtering things out but it’s part of our ongoing experience of who we are. And thus our gender expressions color our sexual orientations and vice versa.

Meanwhile, one of the most centrally social aspects of sexual orientation is the market of potential partners and how you find them, appeal to them, and position yourself to be perceived by them as a person of potential sexual interest. This is a severely underdiscussed aspect of sexual orientation. You know how the moon only presents one side to us in perpetuity? Well, this is the back side of sexual orientation that never seems to be facing us, that so seldom gets discussed: not OUR appetite but the appetites of those we wish to find us appetizing, the attractions of the people to whom we find ourselves attracted. Obviously in a perfect (and ego-gratifying) world there would be complete overlap but in reality we seek not only those to whom we are sexually oriented and specifically attracted but also those who are sexually oriented to our type and specifically attracted to us in return.

As I also tend to mention in my presentation talks, OKCupid now allows a person to identify their own gender not merely as man or woman, but lets us pick from a long long list. But then you get to the screen where you specify which searches your profile will be included in and THOSE are still confined to searches for men, searches for women, or both. And for your own searches you can indicate that you’re interested in men, interested in women, or both.

Nowadays, the list of personal gender identities that people may use for themselves is pretty long: man, woman, male, female, agender, demiboy, demigirl, female man, male woman, neutrois, genderfluid between man and woman, genderfluid between agender and demigirl, genderfluid between boy and demiboy, girl, boy, male girl, female boy, bigender, trigender, gender invert, genderfuck, genderfluid between neutrois and female boy, butch, femme, demibutch, demifemme, pangender, nelly, bear, twink…

How do those gender identities come into play when it comes to finding someone who would be attracted to you?

Concepts of sexual orientation lag behind the array of gender identities; it still assumes that people have a sexual orientation that would fall neatly into a very small and finite set of options: heterosexual, gay/lesbian, or bisexual. Heterosexual means that one is attracted to “THE opposite sex”. If a person identifies as being a demigirl, what is “the opposite sex”?

Admittedly, that last question elides any distinction between gender and sex; these identities are genders, we said. But that raises the next box of questions: is sexual orientation generally an attraction on the basis of morphological sex, or is attraction more often by gender?

Gender, as we’ve come to collectively acknowledge, is one’s self-assigned / self-verified identity. But attraction is in the eyes of the beholder, so (as if things weren’t already sufficiently complicated) we should now perhaps distinguish between self-assigned gender and observer-assigned gender. At least long enough to consider the previous question of whether sexual orientation is actually gender orientation or if it’s mostly about morphology and bodily plumbing.

There’s more than a faint whiff of evidence that it is the latter, that what we typically conceptualize as sexual orientation is a fascination for a specific set of body parts and shapes. But there’s less there than many folks think there is, because when making such considerations most folks (especially the more mainstream, those who would most likely identify as heterosexual) are once again subsuming gender into sex. In other words those who think of themselves as attracted to male-bodied people on the basis of them having male morphology are quite often also projecting onto those male bodies the expectation of a manly gender. Switch in in Jeff, or me, and they may wrinkle their noses in disapproval. Similarly, those who conceptualize themselves as having a thing for the female-bodied might back away if the example offered were a stone butch who was less feminine than they were. Not always, but I’m suggesting it’s a counterbalancing trend that offsets the baseline morphological attraction.

So sexual orientation is also not just an attraction to someone with a specific physical morphology. Even though physical morphology would appear to be far from irrelevant.

Back to our hypothetical demigirl. She (or they, if they prefer) would, if being specific in looking for those most likely to find them sexy and desirable, want to find those people who are, a), sexy to them and b) attracted to demigirls. It might be the case that finding people who are attracted to girls in general, or to female people in general, would be sufficient for the latter specification… but it might not be. It depends on whether a generic taste for girls, or female-bodied folk, would have sufficient overlap. If it kind of tends NOT to, positioning herself to be perceived on the market as a girl (and/or female person) would just waste a lot of her time.

I know of whence I speak. I am a gender invert and I am a male-bodied girl. I present as male. (I do make some effort to present as a male-bodied feminine person, but I don’t as of yet enjoy a surrounding cultural notion of what a male girl would look like). I have dated, and in fact I will confess that I probably put more time and energy between the ages of 16 and 41 into seeking potential partners than I spent on being a gender activist. I discovered early on that it simply did not work for me to position myself as a male, and there was no non-problematic way to position myself simply as a girl, either, insofar as I was male-bodied. I was still a virgin when I first realized I needed to position myself and advertise myself as a differently gendered individual, in order to meet people who would find that unconventional package intriguing and attractive. And it worked.

So, in short, rather than gender identity being something that collapses down into just sexual orientation if you stare at it hard enough and don’t buy into a bunch of doubletalk bullshit, it’s the other way around: sexual orientation is a subset of gender identity. In simple cases it may not be necessary to invoke one’s gender identity to explain one’s sexual orientation, but that’s due to the things people can be counted on to take for granted. For the rest of us, to express our sexual orientation we needed to first explain our gender identity.

And to use that explanation as a mating call.

Yes, oh yes indeed. It’s not the only area of life in which being perceived as the gender we perceive ourselves to be makes any difference. But sexuality is a central part of life. Of course it is. Of course it is a big part of why.

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This is a reposting of a blog post. OK’d by the mods.

I think I need a glossary to fully parse that. Preferably a work-safe one.

It is an attraction on the basis of morphological sex, the vast majority of the time. Most people are cisgender and heterosexual.

OKCupid is perfectly free to set up eighty-six different categories of gender if they want. Most people don’t need that.

People can take it for granted because it is overwhelmingly true.

That’s good, and I’m happy if you are happy. But most people aren’t differently gendered, and don’t need to make long explanations of what they are and who they are looking for.

Regards,
Shodan

I agree with you on all three points. I have no quarrel with anything you are saying here, and to you and all other cisgender people who are in your situation, I rejoice in your happiness and the simplicity of your situation.

Regards,
AHunter3

AHunter3: As usual, it took me well over an hour to read your post, as my mind was constantly going off on tangents, comparing my own experience with yours. I’d hate to hear you lecturing; I wouldn’t be able to process all of your thoughts in real time. After a while I’d start to tune you out, in frustration. So thank you for writing it all down.

Shodan: You’ve stated some obvious facts. We all know what “most people” are like, but “most people” don’t represent all of us. Finally the rest of us are finding our voices.

Yes, I’m sorry, but I missed Sexual Orientation.
If it helps, I spent several all-nighters with a good study group in the dorms though…

I’ve read your post thrice and I am not seeing how this follows. I don’t see how gender identity could collapse into sexual orientation, nor how sexual orientation spawns from or is a subset of gender identity.

Simple (unpacked) sexual orientation —

“I am straight; I’m attracted to the opposite sex”

Implicit & necessary gender element —

“I am of ______ gender, hence the opposite is ______”
Contemplate any sexual orientation and embedded in it is a gender element. It becomes even more so when you think not merely in terms of “who am I attracted to” but “who do I want to find me attractive”. We contemplate the sexual appetite of our potential partners, imagining ourselves to be sexy to them. And when we do, it is at least in part because of our gender, or at least that’s typically the case.

I don’t define my sexual orientation in terms of same vs opposite. I want what (or more specifically who) I want. I don’t want all men, or all women; it is far more individually defined. It’s not based on the criteria you outline.

You said Jeff was a stand-up commedian, correct? In that case, I wouldn’t take what he said at face value – it was most likely, you know, a joke.

(Note: I’m drunk and I actually find it’s a wee bit easier to ready it’s a wee bit easier to wee read AHunter’s poster than when earlier when I was sober. Not much, but the basics it seems that sexual orientation has fuck all to do with gender identity? Or something?)

I think. Like I said, I’m pretty buzzed.

You really didn’t have to tell us. :wink:

I am a _____ who is attracted to _____, and hope to be considered attractive by _____.

Fill in the blanks.

I consider myself just a regular guy (a semi-bearish male man, if you prefer) who happens to be attracted to other guys. I have no preference whatsoever regarding the categorization of the men I’m attracted to. I’ve been with girly boys as well as ultra-masculine men, and everything in-between. It just doesn’t matter to me. I’m more concerned with our compatibility, my own sexual repertoire being rather limited, with preference to those of a particular physical shape. But I do draw the line at cross-dressers, because I perceive them as not merely effeminate, but female. But I have no problem with the most feminine of men whom I still perceive as men. So it has more to do with my perception than anything else.

I’ve found that to many mainstream (hetero) people, there’s a rigid connection between the first blank and the second blank. To be male means to be attracted to females. If only life were that simple. And thank god it isn’t. But the third blank has wider boundaries. It’s a cliche that women dress for other women, though this mostly is beyond a sexual consideration. Men dress for other men as well, though more in the sense of social approval.

And then there’s the question of what kind of guy seeks out someone like me. Again, it’s all over the map as far as gender, etc. are concerned. But in the years before I was partnered, I found that certain venues, primarily those that catered to a broadly SMBD crowd, afforded me more matches than the typical vanilla gay bar. So I tended to socialize and dress accordingly. Again, it’s all about perception, both mine and theirs. Eye of the beholder.

Hi, panache, and thanks!
It’s morning and I want to take a 2nd crack at responding to this:

OK, I think I was being thick and annoying when I said sexual orientation is a subset of gender identity. To make better sense I should have said something like “you can’t easily approach sexual orientation without first considering your gender”.

Even that may not be strictly true of everyone. It may not, for example, be true of raventhief if raventhief doesn’t sexually incline to any type but only to individual people (see post #9).

But let’s take your general situation, if you don’t mind. We’ve been on this board, both of us, for a long time. I first knew you as Anthracite, that cool lesbian who knew so much about mechanical energy sciences and whatnot. Later you identified yourself as transgender and transsexual.

I would imagine that you knew you were a girl before you knew that you were a lesbian. I would also imagine that nearly all lesbians know that they are girls before they know that they are lesbians, but that for most of them the fact that they were girls was not something they had to sort out first, it was unproblematic for them, taken for granted. That may have been the case for you, but it’s decently likely that you had to figure that out and that figuring it out would have taken some processing time. You may not have presented as a girl or been perceived as a girl, since if I understand correctly you were assigned male at birth (AMAB), yes? So, like me, you would have been dealing with other folks’ perceptions of you as a boy, and their expectations and all that.

You may or may not have known you were attracted to (other) girls before you realized you were, yourself, one of them. If you were, depending on how young you were at the time and how much you know about sexual orientation variations in the world around you, you might have thought of yourself as typical of (other) males in that respect, at least. Or maybe not—perhaps the way in which your attraction to (not-yet-other) girls didn’t seem to you to be kin to how typical (i.e., hetero) boys in general were attracted to girls. At any rate, you probably didn’t conceptualize yourself as a lesbian and then, later, realize you were a girl, right?
OK, I’ve just spent a couple paragraphs telling you how it was for you, albeit cautiously. If I’ve been in any way offensive, you’re totally entitled to blast me for it as you see fit, and I apologize if I’ve been a jerk in doing so.

Both lesbians and hetero guys have their sexual orientation “towards female people”, but at least in the world we inhabit, in our society, there is a difference in identity and experience between being a lesbian and being a straight guy. So sexual orientation is not just “who are you attracted to” it’s also “who are you”.

Anyway, the rest of it is that sexual orientation hasn’t caught up with the revolution in gender identities. If we’re moving beyond the binary and accepting that there are more gender possibilities than male/man/boy and female/woman/girl, that gender is more complicated than that, sexual orientation has to catch up and offer more possibilities than straight/gay/bi. Not only because of who one might be attracted to being more complicated but because—as with the diff between straight guy and lesbian—your own identity can affect perceptions (your own and of other people) of that attraction so as to shape it into a sexual orientation different from what it would otherwise be.

[QUOTE=Count Blucher]
Yes, I’m sorry, but I missed Sexual Orientation.
If it helps, I spent several all-nighters with a good study group in the dorms though…
[/quote]

:smiley:

Does this not presume that people are always seeking their “opposite”? Is this really the case?

I had to look up “demigirl”? Is the opposite of a demigirl a demiboy? Since a demi-person has a variable gender identity, then your framework would predict that at any given moment, their “opposite” could be anything. So the word “hence” frankly makes me roll my eyes. If I don’t even know what your particular gender identity label means, then how the hell am I going to know what your “opposite” is?

I don’t understand how presenting yourself as differently gendered enables more understanding than simply describing yourself as an effeminate heterosexual male. “Gender invert” isn’t specific enough–neither in terms of gender or sexuality. But I can see how calling yourself “differently gendered” would signal to other gender activists that you are a member of the club. Obviously someone who is bold enough to call themselves “neutrois” is communicating they care a whole lot about labels and probably wants a partner who feel the same way. However, outside of the circle of gender activitists, I don’t think these labels help. If gender can be spliced up a million different ways based on personality types, then maybe gender isn’t that important anyway.

I understand where you’re coming from, but Shodan and monstro do have a point - for a lot of people (I’m not going to say most because I think that some slant of pan-sexuality is “most” common and people either sublimate or ignore any desires or impolilses that are different in order to make their self-image match the dominant social paradigm) - but for a lot of people, there’s no need (and therefore no real desire and possibly no real benefit) for them to do any deep or introspective thinking about the intersectionality of their identity and their desires and who else is involved in that, because the dominant social paradigm of "straight/gay/(maybesometimesbi) and “man/woman” is totally sufficient for them to navigate their world and their relationships.

That said, I also wonder if you’re not dealing more fundamentally with a categorization error instead of a conflation of gender identity and sexual preference.

So like you said, despite the fact that a straight man and a lesbian woman are both potentially attracted to the same pool of “woman-identified-and-probably-visually-female-presenting” people, we think of them in different ways. Why?

I think it’s because the visible gender differences between people are one of the few “caste” markers left in western society. We can’t easily/reliably tell who is rich or poor (excepting the true outliers in both directions) and in America we often don’t know where people are from or what their religious affiliation is (again, outliers exempted) but for the average westerner, at least men are men and women are women and you can categorize them reliably and base your interactions safely on that.

Except not really.

So to me it’s less of an issue of self-reflection and consideration of the trifecta of what I am/what I want/who wants me, and more about slowly weaning society away from categorizing people based on limited options of gender presentations in the first place in favor of more value-neutral or relevant categories.

But I do think that for people who don’t fit the dominant paradigm, it’s very helpful to have language and thought schemas to wrap concepts and nebulous identity questions up in. And again, that’s something that isn’t really present in a lot of western society, and without knowing what you don’t know, you can’t really think acccurately about it.

For example, (and this is an extreme example) when I was a child, lesbians were women who didn’t have good childhood relationships with their mothers and sisters and were confused and lonely, and gay men were demon-possessed deviant sexual predators who either worshipped Satan themselves or were offered as child sacrifices by their Satanist parents.

So OBVIOUSLY I (and everyone I knew) was not either of those things. Except I’m actually pansexual, and as I get older I’m identifying much less feminine than I have at any point since my youngest childhood tomboy memories. But is my identification and memory as a child that I was a “straight girl” wrong? I don’t think so. It was one of the two (available, desirable) categories that I had, and where I did fit best given limited options and knowledge. Technically, even now if we limit male or female / straight or gay as the axes of the socially-known categories- I’m STILL a straight girl. Category error.

Does this not presume that people are always seeking their “opposite”? Is this really the case?
[/quote]

The premise immediately preceding the bit you quoted specifies an identity as “heterosexual”. Heterosexual is a term that means “seeking their opposite”.

You tell me! That was my point!

And that continues to be my point!

If one anticipates that one’s potential partners are going to be found inside the circle of gender activists (or at least of differently gendered people, let’s say), and advertising one’s gender identity enables those potential partnerss to know relevant things about you, … umm, go back and re-read the last paragraph of the original post. In fact, go back and re-read the whole thing. Or not, if the subject doesn’t hold your interest, I suppose — there’s no forthcoming test you have to ace or anything.

Lasciel… yeah, there are a significant number of gender activists who want to shitcan gender, see it disappear entirely as a set of notions and expectations and roles and whatnot; they see it as a categorization system that does nothing good and inflicts a lot of harm. I don’t think the folk with that position are a majority among gender activists but it’s definitely out there as a viewpoint.

I dont know if I quite agree… I’m ever so slightly conservative here, I guess, but I think in general there are sex diffs and that gender is a sloppy but not 100% inaccurate batch of generalizations about sex diffs. And our species likes to generalize, it’s how we think. So for this reason I think gender will always be with us. But for gender variants like me to thrive, society needs to have a notion of the variants as authentic people, the exceptions to the rule; we need notions about who we are that came from us (as opposed to descriptions from perplexed and creeped-out mainstream people observing us from the outside).

Categorization error occurs in part because of a dearth of categories. I don’t think ten trillion categories is an ideal situation but a sufficient plurality to enable our comfort would be a good thing. As your own experience shows, the categories don’t need to be spot-on perfect in order for a person to feel “yeah that’s who I am, all right”, as you did for “straight girl”.

I’m pushy about adding my own. I’d be OK with “feminine hetero guy” as monstro suggests, and in fact I’ve used variants of that during my life, but feminine is not merely an adjective there. “Hetero guy” is a gender + sexual orientation combination; you ask central casting to send you over a hetero guy, they don’t send you a feminine male who happens to have the hots for female folks. I can’t easily specify exactly when & where some differences are just attributes of an existing gender versus where they constitute a Different Gender, but I can tell you that I experienced my own as the latter: being a feminine guy make it impossible for me to function as a “hetero guy”. It didn’t work. The different gender identity was necessary for me. Being a “feminine hetero guy” or a “male girl” or however you want to describe it is a different thing.

It’s a category error, for sure, but category errors have consequences, sometimes as relevant and as nontrivial as whether or not the hospital preparing to give you a transfusion has you marked down as “A” when you’re actually “B”.

I’ve read your OP more times than I should have to. If I’ve misunderstood what you’re saying, OK. I am not the most intelligent person in the world. I am also very much unattached to notions of gender and sexuality. But your writing is all over the place and overly verbose. The topic you are writing about is quite abstruse. I don’t know why I should bother considering anything you’ve written if it’s purpose and meaning elude me and you can’t be bothered to break it down.

And if you are only preaching to the choir, why are you posting this here?

Sorry, monstro. You’re entirely correct and I was being unduly flippant in my response to you above.

Please do reread just the beginning of post #8 where I was replying to Una the first time. I didn’t think that was confusingly written and I got annoyed with you and was snarky in my reply. But, yeah, I was starting out with the idea of someone saying “I am attracted to the opposite sex” and then examining how that unpacks (or doesn’t, easily) depending on someone’s gender identity, and you seemed to be making the exact same point as if you were refuting me.

I responded to some of the rest of what you said in my reply to Lasciel in post 18.