Sexual Orientation

For a long time, the whole concept of being transgendered just wasn’t part of the paradigm, or, at least the Western paradigm. The reason that transgendered people who are heterosexual often identify as part of the “queer” community that includes gay men, lesbians, and bisexual people who are not transgendered is that this is not jut historically the first place they found acceptance, but also the first place they found sex partners who fit their attraction.

I know a MTF who is in her 70s, and who has, as far as she was concerned, been a women all her life, but her journey to that realization took a long time, and she at one time identified as a gay man, because even though there was a thought in the back of her head that she should have been born a girl, she dismissed it as internalized homophobia-- a lot of the general population thought that gay men were effeminate men-- and her attraction to men made her a perfectly normal gay male.

Keep in mind, she was born before WWII. Even after the Christine Jorgensen case, nothing clicked, because she thought Jorgensen still looked like a man in drag in all the newsreels and TV pieces about her.

It really wasn’t until she went to a drag show when she was in her 30s, and it dawned on her that drag queens were caricatures of women, and even though she had a strong desire to dress and present as a women, drag had no appeal to her whatsoever that she thought she might be something different from a gay man.

Now, that’s a story I’m giving you second hand, but I’m trying very hard to do it justice, because I think it is fairly interesting.

I would also speculate, just based on my own experience of being bisexual, that she probably had an moment where she went from thinking she couldn’t be transgendered because no one else was like her, to thinking “So what?” maybe she was unique, to realizing that maybe the other people like her were just as confused and keeping silent as she was.

I just assumed I was heterosexual, like everyone else, for most of my early life, because I was attracted to met, and suppressed my attraction to women as some weird vestige of my bad relationship with my mother.

Then when I finally embraced my attraction to women, I figured my attraction to men must be a social imperative-- some kind of learned behavior. So I was a “lesbian” for about two years after college.

Then I met more and more people who identified as bisexual, and finally figured it was legitimate. It wasn’t someone with one foot in the closet, or someone experimenting, going through a stage, or trying to compensate for something missing from childhood.

No TL;DR version. At least read the first four paragraphs.

The non-inclusiveness and limited categorization of “bi” (meaning ONLY two) is why I identify as pansexuql. It may never come up, but I think it’s important to be clear that I don’t see gender as an either/or.

I spent enough time explaining to people what “bi” did and didn’t mean (“no, it doesn’t mean I only do trios, no, it doesn’t mean I can’t be monogamous”), that I’m not up for explaining pansexual. Besides, I do draw lines at bestiality, and S/M, so I’m not really into any and every thing. But I did go out with a pre-op MTF once. She was Jewish, so it was OK.

Autohijack: can you recommend me any particularly good coming-out / coming-of-age bisexual accounts? Preferably that cover interactions with gay/lesbian society as well as mainstream / family /school stuff and really do a good firsthand account of what it’s like to be bi and the stuff that bisexual people go through?

My husband identifies as pansexual. Before we met, he had extensive sexual experiences with a wide assortment of genders. He has a body and personality that many people find desirable, and he succumbed to and/or exploited that fact for many years. He’s also pansexual in AHunter3’s “back side of sexual orientation”. People of all genders were (and still are) interested in him. But he never had to seek them out; they came to him.

He has occasionally told me that he’d feel exactly the same toward me if I were a different gender. I honestly can’t say the same; one of the things I love him for is his maleness. I can’t imagine him as anything other than the kind of man he is.

It’s always interesting to me how it’s different with different people - I’m attracted to quite different types and presentations of ‘generally male-ish’ and ‘generally female-ish’ persons.

I must say that I’m not convinced by your argumentation. I don’t think you truly belong to a different “gender”. From my point of view, you’re an heterosexual male laying at the far end of a masculine–>feminine continuum, while your real peculiarity is, AFAIU, that you ideally would want to take on a stereotypical female role.

I can see how it’s convenient and useful for you to have a name for your proclivity, since using it would allow potential partners to notice you and know what your expectations are. But I would consider that as falling more in the “lifestyle” than “gender” category. An uncommon lifestyle, even by the standard of alternative lifestyles, but a lifestyle nevertheless.

I can also see why you won’t be convinced by people who wish for a “genderless” society, since, even assuming that it would be possible (something you don’t believe), if it were to happen, you would be left in the cold, since fulfilling your expectations requires the existence of stereotypical gender roles.

That said, I guess it all falls down to how you define the word “gender”.

Thank you for posting this. I’ve read it through and realize I need to read it again.

Your honestly and clarity in this regard is an absolute gift here.

Thank you.

This is an interesting read.

It’s well beyond anything I have first or even second hand experience with, so I can only really read and learn viewpoints from people who are different that me. Fascinating.

How much do you think your mental health history, and choice to not pursue treatment, impacts your dogged pursuit of this sexual/gender otherness and desire for society as a whole to accept/understand/support you?

I disagree with the sexual attraction part. People obviously are attracted to secondary sexual (and primary, too) characteristics without even knowing the gender nor sexuality of the person. This is prima facie evident in everything from fashion to pornography, where the observer viewing the Victoria’s Secret models or the Penthouse centerfold typically has no idea of the gender identity nor sexuality of the object of their lust.

If someone is asked to lay out on paper their top-20 most desired qualities in a mate then certainly their gender identity and sexuality enter into it. But for most people the physical attraction is based largely upon the body and the presentation of such.

I can witness this firsthand when I go out dancing at clubs. I don’t have a pretty face but I have a nice body and I know how to dress it. All night long I’m getting men making sexual propositions to me - when I tell them I’m a transsexual woman, about 50% of them run like their feet were on fire and their ass was catchin’, to paraphrase a song. Of the other 50%, about half will still be interested, but then come right out and ask “so, you got a pussy or not?” indicating that there is still a huge amount of the physicality involved. A small percentage, about 1 in 5, will not care about the physical. And then of course there are the chasers, who specifically seek out transgender women (mostly pre-op or non-op), and are actually turned off by cisgender women or post-op women.

I think you are downplaying the physicality, or else are maybe not defining the initial statement in a way that I grasped (which could be my lacking).

OK, that makes more sense.

Although I was assigned male at birth and appeared mostly male, I knew I was something else since age 7-8. I’m not sure if I could define it fully as female because I was a smart kind and over-analyzed things, and I sort convinced myself “but…I can’t be a girl, because of this thing down there…but inside I know I’m a girl…so am I crazy?”

Later on in my 20’s this became more confusing when I was diagnosed with an intersex hormone disorder, and when a side comment from my doctor was made (in essence, “You’re neither one nor the other.”) I suffered from some confusion. Even to this day, because I stand out thanks to my passing privilege due to my intersex condition, I still sometimes have this nagging feeling that I’m “none of the above,” - transgender author and historian Jan Morris once described it as feeling like she was a “mythological creature.”

I initially, very early, was attracted to boys. Because it was the 1970’s/1980’s and I had never even heard the word “transsexual”, nor even knew of anyone like me, I assumed that gay boys really felt like women inside, and that’s why they liked other men. When it was pointed out to me in a “duh” moment that if two gay men got together, would that mean they were lesbians inside, it sorta dawned on me that I was something else…but I had no lexicon.

Later when I was raped by two men at age 16, I developed a strong fear and even hatred of men, and was so strongly drawn to other women that I finally “flipped” and became lesbian. Nowadays I would describe myself as “90% lesbian,” meaning that if I was single and the absolute “perfect guy” came along, I’d give it a shot. But the absolute “perfect guy” to me would be an effeminate androgynous person, FWIW.

I love being in the company of other women. I feel safe and accepted there, and I just don’t feel that around a group of men. I feel like an outlier or like I walked into the wrong toilet. After my breast augmentation gave me absolutely epic breasts I suddenly have had to deal with a huge amount of male attention, which I find uncomfortable (but also tell myself "well…yeah, you’re living the female experience; you’re no better than anyone else). Even from people who knew I was trans but weren’t interested, and all of sudden now they are - the physical change was what did it for them (and really? Guys? Breasts would suddenly make an undesirable transwoman acceptable? It seems so crazy, and yet it is happening.)

The opening post reminds me most, of the now ancient and overturned, incredibly complicated mathematics involved with trying to explain scientifically, that the Earth was the center of the universe.

It could be done, but required an insane amount of verbiage, as well as a huge number of separate mathematical formulas to be manually coordinated, in order to successfully predict the apparent motion of the elements in our skies.

The non-geocentric theory most now adhere to, is still VERY complicated, but doesn’t require near as many “adjustments” to make it work.

I’m not in any way poo-pooing any of the individual points with this presentation, nor suggesting that any of the simple-minded ideas that are popular with certain people (and mentioned in the post) are more correct.

The main element that I see as missing from this particular presentation, is a thorough recognition of the real complexity and effect of what might be called “socially driven assumptions.”

One big overlooked item, is the idea that some simple unifying concept is possible. The desire to oversimplify things, for the sake of being able to stop working on them ,and get on with other “fun stuff,” is a HUGE component of all human struggles.

Another item I don’t see any adjustment for, is that there are a lot of independent motivations behind “difference deniers” in the world. Some are just paranoid, some are in a panic to avoid having to alter their own behavior at all, and want the entire rest of the world to change instead. Many others, actually don’t give a crapola about gender or sexual variations at all, and are only denying facts, as a way to attack other entirely unrelated political targets. If you look carefully, you can actually find people who are attacking gender or sexual orientation concerns, entirely because they want to arrange for financial advantages for themselves in business, which have nothing to do with sexuality, but which they think that people who ARE concerned about sexuality issues, are dedicated to preventing.

All of that, has resulted in a lot of fake “theories” being concocted and promoted by all sorts of people, in order to fight back against OTHER confused or sneaky people. Again, very similar to the extra math and physics that were concocted in order to explain why the Earth only SEEMED to go around the Sun.

Yeah, I noticed that the next morning. My writing skills apparently don’t improve as much as my reading skills do when I drink. :o

It’s the other way around, actually.

I had no “mental health history” to speak of prior to my dogged pursuit of a successful coming out to society. People did not understand what I was so excited about. When you’ve got a college student who is very excited and whom people are finding it difficult to understand, it isn’t entirely weird to worry that maybe the reason the student doesn’t make sense to people is that the student doesn’t make sense, period.

I have remained a partisan activist in the psychiatric patients’ liberation movement because rather than my case being a strikingly unusual case of folks badly mishandling the situation of an intense and excited person who didn’t seem to be making sense, that kind of thing is horrifyingly common.

But be that as it may, … are you asking me whether I think my “dogged pursuit of this sexual / gender otherness and desire for society as a whole to accept / understand / support me” is me compensating for being nutso, or is no more than the meaningless static of misbehaving mentally-ill neurons, or is a symptom of my grandiose paranoid schizophrenia or something along those lines?

Heh! That was apparently what the university was wondering back in 1980. Want to know how I acquired a “mental health history”? It was by being willing to entertain exactly those possibilities — my willingness to say “bring it on, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable question to ask”, even though no, at no time did I ever think I was nuts or neurotic or genuinely ranting nonsense or anything of that ilk.

I am still open to putting that on the table as a possibility. I think anyone who fervently espouses ideas that the people around them don’t share as self-evident truth ought to consider the possibility that they’re nuts.

BUT having been burned once, I’m setting this rule: you don’t get to assume I’m nuts and proceed from there. You have to be equally open to the possibility that I do make sense, and that I am indeed onto something here and that I know of what I speak. I have zero interest in having a one-sided conversation with someone who has already made up their mind that I’m bonkers.

AHunter3, here is what I’m not getting:

You feel that “effeminate heterosexual male” doesn’t fully encapsulate who you are, since “heterosexual” is a term that has some additional meaning to it that you feel doesn’t represent your sexuality. You aren’t the prototypical heterosexual male who tends to take the “top” position. By identifying yourself as “heterosexual”, you feel you aren’t selling yourself honestly to potential partners–folks who are seeking a “top” exclusively.

I guess I don’t understand why’d you need a special way to describe this preference beyond adding a sentence when describing yourself in person or online. “I’m an effeminate male, and I’m seeking an assertive woman to complement me.” Gay guys specify what they are looking for all the time; I guess I don’t understand why it would be any different for anyone else. I don’t get why you’d need to come up with a new label for yourself, unless you’re just trying to holler at women who are very much into the political aspects of gender non-conformity (instead of women who are simply respectful of gender non-conformity). And if this is the case, then it’s less about “gender invert” being a more precise label and more about you signaling your membership to a particular club–which of course is going to be attractive to people already in that club. The label may be better in that it enables you to get more game in those places where you find dates. But that doesn’t mean “effeminate heterosexual male” doesn’t communicate just as well, if not better, in most other contexts.

Seems to me it’s a situation no different from someone who advertises themselves as a “Single heterosexual woman” versus someone who advertises themselves as “Single woman, African American, professional jazz musician, age 40 heterosexual from the US”. The former doesn’t tell us very much, so I wouldn’t expect that person to get much play. But the second provides enough information to establish shared interests. A person can form generalizations from this description (She’s probably an independent woman who doesn’t dig traditional gender roles") and act accordingly. “Effeminate heterosexual male” does that for me (like, I totally wouldn’t expect an effeminate male to be assertive in the bedroom. That just seems like a no-brainer).

Meeting a guy who talks about being a “gender invert” would make me think, “Hmm, interesting!”, which may then make him seem more attractive. But would I be attracted to his gender? Or just his unconventionality in general?

Has this possibility occurred to you?

But this is the trap he’s trying to avoid. I can, in the broadest possible terms, describe myself as a “Top”; but, to most people, that would imply that I like to fuck. I don’t. At all. So we need a more nuanced language to better describe ourselves. And of course, it’s not about sex acts anyway. The difference between a hyper-masculine guy and a girly guy has nothing whatsoever to do with what they like to do in bed. And it really doesn’t have to do with their superficial mannerisms either. It has more to do with how the person sees himself and how he wants others to see him. That’s the vocabulary that AHunter3 is exploring. (AHunter3: please correct me if I’m wrong.)

I’m all for more precise language. Which is why I would never select a dating partner based solely on their photo and the boxes they check off. I would study their profile to see how they describe themselves and what they are looking for (“Personality-wise, I’m quite assertive and dominant; however, I tend to take the submissive position in the bedroom.”) It seems to me a profile that is well-written would be adequate for communicating the fine details of a person’s personality and sexuality. “Gender invert” or some other creative label is still going to need some explanation, correct?

Of course. But I’d like to think that once you read someone’s profile and come across the terms “feminine” or “hyper-masculine”, you have all the information you need to decide whether this is someone you’d get along with.

By “others”, do you mean romantic partners?

Or do you mean everyone?

Because, sure, I understand why you would want partners to know the kind of role you prefer to play in intimate relationships. Not just bedroom stuff, but in general.

But I don’t know why anyone else should care that you are a “top but you don’t like to fuck”. Or that AHunter3 wants to be the “girl” in the relationship. That sounds like information that is more appropriate for dating websites or two people getting to know each other better over coffee, not the public arena. I don’t need to “perceive” AHunter3 as a girl to be a good coworker or neighbor to him. I just need to know what personal pronoun he prefers.

So if the argument is that nuanced language helps one to acquire partners, I don’t disagree. The more details shared up-front the better–though I don’t think a label is always the best way to do this. But I think there’s a difference between nuanced language and TMI.

(Does anyone remember Silver Tyger? I suddenly got a flashback on this thread. She seemed to think pinpointing all the “right” labels was essential for her being understood, regardless of the TMI factor.)

I want to describe three conflicting viewpoints. Just to lay them all three out there on the table and stuff.

Viewpoint A —Gender identities exist; and some legitimate ones have been discovered and acknowledged over time. This AHunter3 thinks he has a candidate for yet another one to be recognized and considered legitimate. Some of us aren’t so onboard with that; we think the one he’s describing is not so much of a legitimate gender identity. At best it’s a variation on some existing gender identity. He should use the existing legitimate gender identity that comes closest and modify it with an adjective or two, instead of trying to get us to regard his newfangled homemade gender identity as real.

Viewpoint B — Gender identities only exist in the social imagination. Everyone who claims to have one is just reflecting the forces of socialization, the expectations and media representations etc ad nauseum that make people think of themselves in these limited ways. To some extent we’re all pressured into buying in to some of that, but when you get right down to it, gender is just stereotyped nonsense, at least if we’re confining ourselves to things like personality and behavioral differences and all that other “soft” identity stuff. Some of us think AHunter3 is one of those “grass is greener on the other side of the fence” people who, instead of being sufficiently astute to reject gender definitions altogether, is pining for the feminine side as a reaction to his not liking the masculine side. Others, more charitably, think AHunter3 is using this “gender invert” thing as a way of sidestepping the masculine gender imperatives, or trying to, although we aren’t necessarily buying into it as an actual identity the way he describes it.

Viewpoint C — “Gender identity” is a notion that makes enough sense to enough people that it is useful in communication, because most (if not all) people are familiar with how other people have used “gender identity” as a concept, so when AHunter3 describes his situation in terms of being another gender identity, we know in general the kind of thing he’s talking about, even if we’re not clear on the specifics of how the one he’s describing is different from the ones we’ve heard others using. We recognize the utilitarian usefulness of him describing what he’s trying to describe in terms we’re familiar with, although some of us don’t think he has chosen the best possible terms. Some of us think he could say what he is trying to say using other selected concepts and notions that are in general circulation and make more sense to more people. l

I think there is at least a good kernel of useful insight and truth in all three viewpoints. I myself am probably least in alignment with the first (Viewpoint A), although I think there’s a social-context-specific sense (rather than an absolute and inevitable sense) in which a finite number of gender identities “exist”. I don’t think genders exist the way people with Rhesus-factor negative blood versus Rhesus-factor positive blood exist, as concrete things that people either have or have not yet discovered at any given point in history, and where at any given time society correctly knows or else has an incorrect understanding of it. I think instead that gender is like archetypes: socially shared notions, images, collectively accumulated identities that work in our heads at the level of myth and legend, inspiring us or sometimes warding us off.

I tend to consider the Viewpoint B people to be like the folks who say “well, myths and legends are, by definition, stuff that isn’t true. So this stuff isn’t true, it isn’t real”. Neither is the Marlboro man in his cowboy hat, but our culture is permeated with the sense of a certain kind of character, and when someone sort of channels that myth they are speaking a kind of language to us, and we understand it. We go to movies or read books and we don’t have to “believe the American cowboy was real as conventionally depicted” in order to say “Hey, Jeff Bridges really did the western hero in the modern automative era to perfection” or something of that ilk.

My own viewpoint, in case it’s not blindingly obvious, is closest to Viewpoint C. I don’t think there are social truths with exactly denotatively perfect English-language terms that mean those exact things. Instead, I think the process of communicating social truths is an art, not a science. It is not possible to put most things in completely accurate words — in order for that to work, the audience would have to have an identical lexicon so that the meaning that ends up bouncing around inside their heads is the exact meaning that the speaker intended, and that it would work that way for any English-speaking audience because that’s what those words mean. Well, it ain’t like that, folks. Instead, one chooses terms and juxtaposes them with other terms and mixes in some other descriptive stuff and paints a verbal picture on the canvas in hopes that a goodly chunk of the audience picks up on the notions and myths and shared iconography and all that shit and gets what the speaker or author meant. And where they don’t? You try to have dialog. You sometimes take a run at expressing the same thoughts in different words in hopes of attaining that “aha” moment with the people who didn’t go “aha” on the first go-around.

Now, people can understand you, all the way down to the proverbial gut level, and still not agree with the associations you’re trying to conjure. Just like I can come back from Hell or High Water and say negative things about the kind of person that Jeff Bridges portrayed and reject the hero-trappings. But the biggest hurdle is usually just to communicate.

With social realities, it’s usually more about the connotations than the denotations. In the 1850s in America, abolitionists didn’t have to explain to folks that people from Africa had been enslaved. People knew that. Abolitionists had to connect that fact with shared notions of equality and fairness, with the country’s stated promise of life, liberty and the pursuit of happeness, with the ideals of the enlightenment and its notions of what it means to be a person, in such a way that the folks listening go “Oh! Aha! Hey, this is morally wrong”.

I’ve used other terms, other ways of trying to dish out the central points I’m trying to make to people, at earlier points in my life. (I’ve been at this since roughly January of 1980). The terms I’ve chosen, both earlier and now, were picked by me because of the connections I wanted folks to make in their heads when considering this stuff. If that sounds cynical and manipulative, I can only tell you that I’m not cynical (although I’m every bit as manipulative as any artist and many a politician). I observe you (collectively, the people who constitute my society) to currently be thinking in a certain way about gay, lesbian, and transgender people. I very non-cynically have always seen myself as being in an analogous situation, but much of the useful language didn’t exist, or at least not in a widely shared fashion, such that it was easy to use that as a starting point. (Not that I didnt’ try that some, in 1980 and 1981, but I drifted towards trying to express it in terms of feminist theory and the feminist attack on the unfairness of one set of standards for men and another for women, and get to my point from that starting point instead, for a decade or so afterwards). I choose to use LGBTQ terms and, specifically, the existing & ongoing talk about gender identity because it is a good comparison: I want to be thought of in the same general way that many of you think of transgender, gay, bisexual, lesbian, etc people. I don’t mean me, personally, but my category. To add a new category and have you all think of the new category along the same lines. And my desire for that outcome is, of course, embedded in my choice of the language that I use. Yes, I want something from you! I’m trying to shape your perception and your emotional reaction and attitude to a category of people I’m describing!

I am trying to be honest and put all of my cards on the table.

Feminist Carol Hanisch wrote “The Personal is Political”. Indeed it is. This is social politics. And it’s way personal. I’m not immune to getting defensive and stuff but I don’t think I’m too bad about it, actually.

To monstro and panache: I think it is definitely useful and possibly necessary to understand what I’m doing on two levels: me talking about me in the process of seeking personal solutions, and me talking about an entire category of people to which I am claiming to belong in the process of trying to do sociopolitical change.

I am 58. I am partnered. I am not lonely and I am not suffering from an inability to meet possible partners.

That doesn’t mean I have not been in that situation in the past. I have been, multiple times, both before and after 1980 when I first came out. I could end up in that situation yet again in the future. So the personal side is not irrelevant.

But I think it is fair to say it is not my primary focus at the moment. I’m being a social activist about these personal concerns but the emphasis is on social activist, not personal concerns.

As a matter of fact, I would say that being directly outspoken on these issues has not tended to be good bait for enticing and luring women to me. I’m more free to make noise about it at the moment precisely because I have my personal solutions working for me and I’m secure in my relationships.

Thanks for all your comments and insights, both of you.