[QUOTE=sturmhauke]
In other words, they really are dei ex machinis in the classical sense.
[/QUOTE]
[about the eagles]
Yes, indeed. There’s some considerable back story regarding the eagles and their uncanny ability to help important people out of scrapes.
Here’s a good artcile for people who want to read more about them (without, say, reading the Silmarillion themselves.)
[QUOTE=Laughing Lagomorph]
In other words The Ring possesses pretty much all of Sauron’s characteristics. Including treachery. The Ring betrays Isildur, and Gollum as well. So I think if it came down to it, The Ring would ditch Sauron himself and allow itself to be wielded by the Balrog, and in the end help the Balrog defeat Sauron. The Balrog would then become the new Dark Lord.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, no. JRRT mentioned something about this himself.
Even without the Ring, Sauron was one mean mutha. And the yeah, the Ring was treacherous and all that, but it was still a living part of Sauron, more or less. I will not and cannot betray him. Now, a really, really powerful person could take it up and fight Sauron with it, and theoretically beat him down with it. Sauron would become a slave, or a shadow of a ghost, and the Ring would have a new Master. But that was unlikely to succeed. But this is not really a physical battle as such and the Balrog’s size and strength would mean nothing.
A Balrog? Maybe. Maybe. Even among the wise, though, none of them would really be expected to win, except Gandalf. Partly because he is originally such a good person but of course also because he was a wise and powerful Maiar, he could probably have won. But even a Balrog would likely have lost this battle. They were lesser spirits than Sauron from the start of their evil reign, and Sauron would have a big advantage in his seat of power with the Ring right there.
For a related mater, see how Aragorn was able to force Sauron out of the Palantir. The Palantir was rightfully Aragorn’s item, and he literally had an advantage in the fight because he was in the right. The orb responded to his claims. However, the Ring was Sauron, and anyone else would face an uphill battle trying to master it.
Likewise, the Balrog would probably have moved too fast. Almost anyone, if they were willful enough, could have tried to master the Ring over years and centuries or whatnot. Gollum got nowhere with it because his will was not fundamentally given to controlling others. OTOH, someone like Aragorn or Saruman was used to rulership and getting their way, and would find the Ring increased that authority.
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
I will not and cannot betray him.
[/QUOTE]
:eek:
[QUOTE=Koxinga]
:eek:
[/QUOTE]
:smack:
Don’t worry: My evil is less evil than my spelling is god.
[QUOTE=Tapiotar]
'kay, eleanor rigby. I see the Boromir/Faramir thing in terms of a pair of brothers I knew in high school
Boromir, the older brother, is the star athlete on the small town high school football team, gets an exaggerated opinion of himself, wants to make the world safe for democracy and will use any means available 'cause he’s so dang sure that he’s RIGHT. His force will win the day!
Because his ego is so effing big, he thinks he can can rule the ring. He doesn’t see his own weaknesses.
Faramir, the younger brother, somewhat more effeminate (he reads, for goshsake, and thinks! and doesn’t just major in swordsmanship. His ego hasn’t been pandered to and plumped up since he was a wee one, swaggering and beating up the weaker ones on the playground. So he knows he can’t handle the Ring, and lets it go.
(Faramir marries Eowyn. Later realizes that she is more of a man than he is. He comes out and goes to get it on with the beauteous Legolas, a switch-hitter. Eowyn finds someone, I’m not quite sure who, who is more of a match for her.)
[/QUOTE]
No, no, no! Boromir is mensch but in a different way from Aragorn. The best scene in the film (besides the death scene) is when B says to A that he would make it right for his father etc. I don’t see him as an arrogant football prick/jock.
Faramir is a Renaissance man. Eowyn is not a closeted butch, either!
:eek:
And Legolas is NOT a switch hitter! :mad:
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
And Legolas is NOT a switch hitter! :mad:
[/QUOTE]
Besides, Sam would kill him if he tried anything.
[QUOTE=Koxinga]
Besides, Sam would kill him if he tried anything.
[/QUOTE]
Too right, and Sam and Frodo have a friendship–unlike today’s sexually obsessed times (although come to think of it, Tolkien’s times were pretty damned sexually obsessed/repressed, but I digress) men back in the day could and did have loving friendships that were based on respect and honor etc. Either that or 2 entire generations were so tightly closeted that they might was well have been corseted.
:eek:
And Jodie Foster would have made a bitchin’ elf! I can so see her in Lothlorien. I bet she’d be good at archery.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Eowyn is not a closeted butch, either!
[/QUOTE]
Well, no, but she’s a total tomboy. She probably could kick Faramir’s ass if it came down to it.
[QUOTE=sturmhauke]
Well, no, but she’s a total tomboy. She probably could kick Faramir’s ass if it came down to it.
[/QUOTE]
Actually they are a good match. While not as big as Boromir, Faramir was a tall man, still taller than the tall Éowyn. He was a great captain that could lead man and horse in organized retreat even under the literal shadow of the Witch-King. In Faramir, Éowyn found the man closest to Aragorn in temperament and skills. She settled for second best and she had no chance against one of the three most beautiful women in the history of Middle Earth.
Faramir would hold his own and then some if it came to it. He was more akin in temperament to the Kings of old than most any man of the day. Skilled in war, not reckless and learned in lore and history, he would have made a good ruling steward and went on to be a great Prince.
Besides Lady Éowyn gave up the martial arts to study healing, if I remember correctly. No more a shield-maiden, but now that highest of pursuits, a healer of hurts.
ETA I found it and btw it is my bolding:
Jim
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Actually they are a good match. While not as big as Boromir, Faramir was a tall man, still taller than the tall Éowyn. He was a great captain that could lead man and horse in organized retreat even under the literal shadow of the Witch-King.
[/QUOTE]
I have always appreciated how Tolkien could show different kinds of strengths.
Hold up there, Skippy… In my take of it (which is the only valid one, so make note of that, eh?) Aragorn has a bit of “what might have been” re Eowyn. He is attracted to her and they would have made a great couple but for that tainted elvish love stuff*. She is worthy of him, although he does stand higher. Plus, she was very fair–snow over sun or some such poetry.
Why, yes, said the nurse smug but humble. 
*I am not a huge fan of Arwen. It seems to me all she is is beautiful–she is a cardboard character–some pedestaled ideal that haunts Aragorn. It’s a bit better in the films(partly because they change the story line), although, again, there is no passion (by that I mean more than sex). I see Viggo/Aragorn longing for Arwen/Liv and I see that they love one another, but I see no chemistry, no spark–except at the end with the kiss. Whether this is because Aragorn basically had to jump through hoops of Elrond’s making to get his “prize” or because he kept her a treasured thing because of his deep respect for elves, I don’t know. I do know that it is irksome for any woman to be cherished-something Tolkien was ignorant of.
[QUOTE=Tapiotar]
…(Faramir marries Eowyn. Later realizes that she is more of a man than he is. He comes out and goes to get it on with the beauteous Legolas, a switch-hitter. Eowyn finds someone, I’m not quite sure who, who is more of a match for her.)
[/QUOTE]
The mind reels. The Professor spins.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Hold up there, Skippy… In my take of it (which is the only valid one, so make note of that, eh?) Aragorn has a bit of “what might have been” re Eowyn. He is attracted to her and they would have made a great couple but for that tainted elvish love stuff*. She is worthy of him, although he does stand higher. Plus, she was very fair–snow over sun or some such poetry.
[/QUOTE]
Aragorn had only pity for Éowyn, he recognized she was fair, but his heart was lost long ago and apparently he was made of sterner stuff than any other man. Aragorn was an Uber-Hero. Loyal and strong willed beyond normal humans. He had no actual attraction for her, as his heart was pure. She was also somewhat shallow, she saw in him only the Heir of Elendil and the great Warrior, and she has a quick and hard crush. Though she was only 24 and of the house of the King, her years were tough, tending a man she loved as a father who was under the sway of an evil deceiver that she needed to fend off. The one thing I am amazed at is that she herself did not slay Wormtounge in the years before Gandalf showed up. But then it was hinted at that she too fell under the sway of Saruman’s spells as delivered by Wormtounge. Only Éomer seem to mostly ignore them, but he seemed a simpler man. He was a brave and fearless Captain but not given to deep thoughts of introspection. He was more like Boromir.
I thought you would like that part. It was also for **QTM ** and my sisters and niece.
Tolkien comes from another generation and is writing of a time closer to the ideals of the chivalrous age. Arwen is more of a prize then a character, but you see more of her in Appendix A, (V) “Here Follows a Part of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.” Her beauty was unearthly, whereas Éowyn was but a great beauty by human standards. Even Éomer found the Queen Arwen to be more beautiful than Galadriel, who from what I can tell was the third most beautiful of the women of Middle Earth. (I am not counting Melian, Luthien’s Mother, as she was a Maia, a minor goddess or Angel as it was.)
Additionally, Aragorn had the grace of a longer life than any human in many generations. He was hail and hardy to the end at an age of 210. At best Éowyn would live to see 100 years and that would be a lot. So in Arwen, Aragorn also won for the humans a renew lineage in their Kings. She would bring long life and thus hopefully stability and wisdom to the renewed line of Kings starting with King Eldarion Telcontar.
Jim
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
No, no, no! Boromir is mensch but in a different way from Aragorn. The best scene in the film (besides the death scene) is when B says to A that he would make it right for his father etc. I don’t see him as an arrogant football prick/jock.
[/QUOTE]
First of all, if you are going to make the movie representations your basis of discussion, you and I are gonna end up not talking much about it because the movie is nothing but an attempt at translation: the books, and only the books, are the real deal! 
Boromir isn’t arrogant in the sense you are thinking: a jerk who won’t listen to anyone and thinks he’s the second coming sense. He’s arrogant in the sense of being cocksure. Gondor is the bulwark of Middle-Earth, and civilization in the West depends upon its survival. The Stewards are the faithful, Valar-selected guardians of that bulwark. What man can do, Boromir can do, just as his father before him, and his father, and so forth, have done. There is no need to think of failure because there is no point: if Gondor fails, no one else will stand. Destiny, if you will, will work through Denethor, and after him through his son, Boromir the Brave. So if you have this Ring of Power, this weapon of might, let Denethor, or if not Denethor, his lawful heir, Boromir, use it to do what must be done!!
Faramir, on the other hand, is the younger brother who simultaneously worships his older brother, and is jealous of his favored status with their father. Daddy doesn’t see Faramir’s intelligence as a strength, but, rather, as a weakness, for it leads to doubt, and to wavering of purpose. Denethor has mastered his intellectual aspects by subjugating them to his will of purpose. But he knows that his younger son can be corrupted from the path of needful acts by his curiosity, and his sense of “fair play.” So he favors the less-intelligent, but completely brave son, Boromir. Faramir resents that, but can’t hold it against Boromir, because at the same time, he wants to be just as brave, just as steadfast.
The Denethor-Boromir-Faramir triangle is one of the great parts of the books. When I was 13 and reading them for the first time, I was impatient with all the relationship crap. As an adult, I love it. It is much more engaging than the rather insipid attempt at a love story that the Aragorn-Arwen storyline presents. :o
It should be noted that Aragorn spent the better part of 50 years working to win Arwen Undomiel’s hand in marriage. He had been to the edges of Mordor itself as part of that quest (possibly even within Mordor at some point, IIRC). It was his all-consuming dream.
In light of that, I think we can safely say he had no real interest in Eowyn as a love-match. He simply pitied her for the fact she was clearly seeing him as having a potential that way when he could not, would not ever respond.
To her credit, Eowyn finally realizes the difference and sees that Faramir is plenty of man for her (especially with that wonderfully kinky menage-a-trois concpet Faramir floats out about Legolas, or maybe one of the halflings (think about it, they only stand waist high 
))
Yeah, but they have round heads. Where are you going to set your beer?
[QUOTE=Tapiotar]
Eowyn finds someone, I’m not quite sure who, who is more of a match for her.)
[/QUOTE]
I’m thinking she ends up doing a Xena/Gabrielle thing with Goldberry.
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
Boromir isn’t arrogant in the sense you are thinking: a jerk who won’t listen to anyone and thinks he’s the second coming sense. He’s arrogant in the sense of being cocksure. Gondor is the bulwark of Middle-Earth, and civilization in the West depends upon its survival.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s more complicated than that. Boromir really isn’t very confidant, but he’s spent his entire life trying to battle the Shadow (and Denethor the same). There’s not really any victories there, and they are constantly pushed back and back and back. Boromir is confidant and martial because he has to be to get through the day. Denethor is under huge pressure (which eventually breaks him) and he’s only holding on because Boromir is able to take some of the burden.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
*I am not a huge fan of Arwen. It seems to me all she is is beautiful–she is a cardboard character–some pedestaled ideal that haunts Aragorn.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. Arwen’s too busy standing around being all statuesque and mystical and shit to be, you know, interesting.
Gah. I’m not going to answer everyone one by one–it’s late and I’m tired.
STOP with the pity, already! I don’t think Aragon pities Eowyn. I think he sees in her great potential and great sadness. If he does pity her, it is for her benighted mis-allied energies. She is so bent on valor in conquest and all things heroic(and such is her culture, too), she doesn’t see that just facing life day to day is heroic enough. I don’t think Aragorn pities her for her infatuation with him. He knows she’s worthy and good and pure of mind; her character is as fine as his, but it’s misdirected. It sounds anti-feminist, but she is questing in the wrong arena for honor. She is much younger in years than Aragorn, and so has this need to believe in pure things and honorable things. Aragorn, having been around the block a bit, knows that her naivety is what drives her infatuation for him.
IMO, Aragorn sees in her a companion, but you all are right in that his heart is claimed by Arwen (who is starting to be Yoko in my head, I swear!*). One of the reasons I respect Tolkien as much as I do is for Eowyn. In an era that emphasized docility and compliance in females, Eowyn kicked ass and was not made to seem asexual or unwomanly. She uses her great energies for good in the end–and in the more noble art of curing and healing, not hurting and destroying. I think Aragorn admires her fortitude and her character.
It’s the difference between a guy being nice to a girl whom he knows has a crush on him and a guy just taking the admiration for granted. Does that make sense? If any of you have ever been lucky to have been the focus of a crush–what did you do? Laugh about it to your friends? Use the girl for sex? Or were you flattered and at the same time dismayed that you couldn’t return the feelings and concerned that you might inadvertently hurt your crushee? I refuse to believe that guys who like such romantic folderol as LOTR would do the mean guy thing.
Aragorn cannot “lead her on” (and to his credit, he wouldn’t), but he also (both book and film)does not take her idolization as his due. So, he treats her with respect and honors her feelings. This is huge, gentlemen, huge. In some ways, Eowyn is the most interesting of all Tolkien’s characters, because she is such an oddity. She is modern, even by today’s standards. She holds her own. She takes her gifts and makes a life for herself.
Arwen, on the other hand, not so much. I am too modern myself to feel much admiration for her. Beauty, even world class beauty, is no longer enough. She needs to be able to do something–hell, even the princesses in the fairy tales all did something (usually stray into trouble, Arwen doesn’t even do that). I’m not all that sure that Arwen is the best choice for Aragorn. Sometimes I long for a long forgotten elf to ride out of Mirkwood and stumble into Aragorn. An elf who has had to live by her wits and skills, not some dying swan of a noble daughter who looks good in velvet. Arwen is for 10 year olds who want to idealize and romanticize women, IMO. She’s as ephemeral as a soap bubble. I also get impatient with Aragorn working his ass off for his future FIL’s approval. (it works in the legend and it works because they’re mythic characters, which was Tolkien’s intent, but I still get impatient with it).
*just kidding.
Although pity was not Aragorn’s only feeling towards Eowyn, it was an important one:
“…Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man’s heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned. Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left [Eowyn] desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear for what might befall her…” - Aragorn to Eomer, “The Houses of Healing,” ROTK, p. 849 (emphasis added)
“I wished to be loved by another,” she answered. “But I desire no man’s pity.”
“That I know,” he said. “You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn… But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle… Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Eowyn! But I do not offer you my pity… I love you…” - Eowyn to Faramir, “The Steward and the King,” ROTK, p. 943 (emphasis added)