OK, the debt deal is apparently made. How will it affect 2012?

Well, here’s where I think your assumptions are a bit off; Obama didn’t let the Republicans tie the debt ceiling to deficit reduction. The House Republicans (Tea Party caucus) decided to make the routine task of raising the debt limit contingent on deficit reduction, even at the cost of a default. Once they’d done this, Obama had the choice of either insisting those issues be decoupled or negotiating in terms of deficit reduction. The first course has decades of history and common sense to back it up, but has a fatal flaw (fatal to Obama, as I’ll explain below). The second course allows the GOP to distract efforts away from stimulative policy & job creation, but was a detour Obama could shorten considerably if he was patient, determined and smarter than his opposition. (I’ll also explain this below.)

The problem here is that the Tea Party had already demagogued the hell out of the debt ceiling. Even now, after months of news coverage and several dozen cogent print explanations of what a “debt ceiling” is, most of the country still thinks it’s permission to borrow more money from furriners and spend it on turtle sex research and condoms for junkies.

Hell, even Obama demagogued the issue as a Senator; if he’d taken a hard line on a clean bill, yes he’d have gotten it in the end, but not until he’d been successfully portrayed as a head-in-the-sand, free-spending failure, ignoring the country’s WORST DEBT CRISIS ever so he could ram socialist muslim gummint down our collective throats. He would’ve been drawn as the dangerous extremist holding the country hostage to an ideology, and the Pubbies would’ve heroically saved us from default and cried from now 'til November 2012 about the mean irresponsible black man who refuses to compromise and spends all our tax money.

Well, here’s what we know about Obama the community organizer.
a) he’s always been a pragmatist in pursuit of broad progressive goals,
b) he prefers consensus action, and
c) he takes the long view, usually well beyond anyone else at the table.

Here Obama has managed to work an intractable House majority into a position where they’ve not gotten any of their major demands, they’ve not forced him to abandon any of his own conditions, and they’ve signed off on a plan which scuttles their ability to exploit the debt ceiling for political leverage until after the next election. Further, all the Democratic “sacred cows” the President offered up for sacrifice are protected well beyond the next election as well, and a few of the GOP cows are looking at substantial cuts - Defense spending in particular.

And the POTUS achieved this with his hands tied behind his back-- as you say:

And any real attention to job creation was just a campaign slogan, immediately discarded by the GOP to pursue their single agenda of anti-Obamaism. In that context, with intransigent foes who want to terminate his presidency with extreme prejudice, with a country convinced through media saturation that austerity is the answer to our economic woes, Obama the pragmatist has to follow the Tea Party into the wilderness if he wants to lead us out.

Somehow, he finagled a deal which saves the hostage, only reduces spending by a few tens of billions (a drop in the budget bucket) over the next two years, requires the focus for further deficit reduction to be balanced between spending cuts (that are half defense spending) and revenue (including final expiration of the Bush tax cuts), and calls for general spending “caps” which are easily reversible and specifically exempt those New Deal and Great Society programs the neocons hate so much. Hidden in the details is the “deem and pass” for the budget so that there’ll be no distracting fight and government shutdown in September.

It was interesting to me to listen to the President’s comments immediately upon the bill’s passage in the Senate. I noticed he focused clearly and lucidly on job creation through government spending, but he never even used the word “spending” in his description. He wants to “unite” small and large contractors with existing infrastructure projects, and to create an “infrastructure bank” to allow companies to resume hiring. His remarks were almost entirely about spending money to grow the economy, and this is because he’s now set up the conditions where he’s politically free to push this.

But extending them only for the lower brackets makes much better sense than extending them across the board. Obama has the next 18 months to advocate for that.

Well, if you notice, he keeps hitting that point over and over in public remarks. I agree that this message needs to be hammered by the rest of his party, but I have trouble seeing this as a more important victory than, say, saving the country from a deeper recession.

Here’s what I think Obama and the Democrats need to do at this point to recover the initiative.

Acknowledge that the deficit is bad (something everyone agrees on although there are disagreements on which alternatives might be worse). And introduce a new bill that would lower the deficit. Say “Okay, we agree to lower the deficit by cutting $38 billion in spending. Let’s lower the deficit further. Let’s lower it by $76 billion. We’ll keep the $38 billion spending cut we’ve agreed to. And we’ll add another $38 billion in new revenue. This plan will lower the deficit twice as much.”

The new revenue will obviously be the repeal of some of Bush’s tax cuts on the wealthy. This will force the Tea Party to decide where it really stands. Will they step up and support this plan for deficit reduction, which they claim is their main concern? Or will they reverse themselves and admit that they place tax cuts above the deficit?

If seventy-something Tea Party congressmen can hold up this budget, then 193 Democrats should be able to hold up the next budget. Force the Republicans to override them and admit that they don’t really care about the deficit and this was all just political theatre.

People made the same assumptions with Iraq too. No way they would start a war with the half-added information they had released to the public - certainly the President knew best because he had access to more information that made it the correct decision.

Right, gonzo?

-Joe

Why is it that you never hear Obama effectively counter the RW Chatty Kathy talking points?

The best example is, “half of the people pay no income taxes.” I hear this one til I want to puke. The rebuttal, of course, is that the bottom 50 percent only has about 2.5 % of the money. If Obama ever came out and hammered this home in one of his news conferences, I think I’d faint.

The winning arguments are out there. Dems just won’t use them. That is why some of us tend to think both parties are going to the same place, but the Dems are just pretending to be kicking and screaming all the way.

I understand it is wishful thinking to some degree. But Obama flat out said revenue had to be in the mix. Now it has disappeared from the conversation. The admin has been screaming about the ceiling for some time. They apparently believed it was hyper critical.
My conclusion is that Obama was going to do a debt ceiling if he had to blow Boehner in public. Many other countries were screaming about the dangers. They wanted revenue in the equation because you can not chop the deficits in a meaningful way or show you have a path the managing the economy, without it.

With Debt Ceiling Fight Behind Him, Obama Promises Action on Jobs

And I’m willing to bet two months from now it will be to many on the left as if he’s never made any such effort. No matter what he actually does or what he actually says, or how brilliantly he actually negotiates, Obama will be called a sellout or inept and weak by half of the left blogosphere, who will be convinced that he’s made cuts to Medicare and SS benefits (not happenin’) at the same time they’re deriding Fox viewers for believing Obama’s raised their taxes.

Typical. The Pubs pass a good bill that Reid will not even discuss, the Dems ignore more ideas. That’t really reasonable.

Of course, the Dems are so energetic that they sit on their hands for 800+ days and then complain about what the Republicans do.

Down here we have a saying, “fish, or cut bait”, either that or ____ or get off the pot!

This isn’t a monopoly game, although we ARE now playing with monopoly money. We have a debt that is going to literally break this nation if it is not brought under control. The tea partiers (Taxed, Enough, Already) are the ONLY ones that stood their ground to attempt to seriously deal with the problem. The deal struck solves nothing, except to give political advantage to one side or the other. The impossible debt will continue to grow, right now at the rate of about 2 billion per day.

I was in the USSR in 1993 and saw first-hand what a country looks like when its economy collapses. Don’t think it can’t happen here. All the talk about credit rate reduction is still relevant, because unless the debt is reduced, we will still get it reduced at some point.

To illustrate a point, in 1964, you could change a dollar bill for 10 dimes. This week, that dime will cost you about $4. That means that your dollar bill is now really worth 0.025 cents!

All previous administrations have let us down financially by trying to supply everything that everyone wants. My household cannot operate like that, your household cannot operate like that (and you know it), and my nation cannot operate like that indefinitely. The day of reckoning is coming soon.

If you are smart, you will recognize these facts and elect not Democrats or Republicans, but consrvatives who will actually look out for your best interests.

Could someone please make sense of galveston’s post for me? I can’t figure out what he’s trying to say. It almost sounds like he’s saying that the Republicans took care of the debt ceiling problem by themselves while the Democrats ignored it, but that’s clearly not right.

EDIT: I was referring to post #68, but the question might as well stand for #69, too: A dollar is still worth ten dimes, at least around here. And the Tea Partiers systematically refused the plans that would have gotten serious about the deficit.

Sorry, I forgot to say “silver” dimes. Now, if you know where I can get siver dimes @ 10 for the dollar, let me know. I still have a few paper dollars left.:smiley:

Oh, and as for plans that the tea partiers refused, which ones of those were actually written down and submitted? We heard a lot of talk, but that, as they say, is cheap.

I’ll believe the Tea Party is serious about fixing the economy when they renounce the tax policy that broke it.

It’s real simple to fix the deficit. Here it is in three steps:

  1. Raise taxes
  2. Pay off the deficit
  3. Lower taxes

But here’s the Tea Party plan:

  1. Lower taxes
  2. Watch the deficit go up
  3. Blame everyone else for the deficit

Don’t need to wait two months. The new battle will be over the FAA. My extremely likely prediction is that after much drama the FAA status quo will be generally maintained - but part of that “gosh, we are so lucky the teabaggers let us get even this much!” Deal will cut an entitlement, gut union rights,

It has been shown that Obama will retreat on everything just to maintain the appearance of the status quo. Everything that comes up, every formerly-routine vote, it all becomes another opportunity to give in just so Obama and Reid (likely the biggest pussy on the planet) can say they got a deal.

-Joe

What “entitlement” do you think the final FAA bill will “cut”? And why would you think a bill which guts union rights would pass the Senate?

I’ll grant you the union bashing attempt is a legitimate concern, as that (along with the de-subsidization of flights to rural airports in mainly Dem states) is precisely why the FAA funding is stalled. But the “entitlement” comment is frankly nonsensical and I don’t think you have a clue what you’re talking about.

But at least you got to call Reid a pussy and show your disdain for Obama.

Oh for fucks sake, their idea is going to be “tax cuts for rich people”.

Your plan: Raise taxes. I am in favor of stopping things like GE going off-shore and paying zero taxes, but get real. Do you really think there is enough money in the pockets of “the rich” to pay off the deficit? If you took it ALL, there wouldn’t be enough. To get enough taxes to pay off the deficit, you will have to raise taxes on EVERYONE. That will happen when the Bush tax cuts expire, and it still won’t do the job.

What you don’t seem to get is that the tax structure is like a multi-strory building. When you add weight to the building, it doesn’t matter which floor you add it to. All the load is borne by the foundation, and that brother, is you! Do you think corporations actually pay taxes? It doesn’t matter if it is big oil, you pay the tax at the pump. Exxon just passes it on the the government.

If you really want to improve the taxation situation, you should support the Fair Tax. Eliminate the progressive (Marxist) tax system we now have. The Fair Tax is applied on what you spend, not what you earn. The billionaire would pay his fair share on those yachts and private jets. Those who game the welfare system now would pay their fair share. Illegals working for cash under the table would pay their fair share. I believe the revenue would be greater than now, with less pain and confusion. Could you like a plan like that? The Tea Party does.

The problem is not TAXES, the problem is SPENDING. Uncle Sam is a spendaholic, and needs therapy to get over it. We absolutely cannot continue to spend more than we take in. You CAN agree with that statement can’t you?

Nobody thinks the problem is spending. Some folks claim that it is, but their purported solution is generally to cut spending by something on the order of 1%. If a 1% change were all it took, we could get it a lot more easily by raising taxes on the rich.

Did you just claim the tax system is Marxist? That’s silly. It’s like claiming that some conservative policy is Fascist. There are no Marxists and no Fascists in American politics. So already you’ve lost a lot of credibility.

However, I’ll address your other points. I understand how taxes work and I understand how costs get passed down. But now face reality. The costs of the deficit also get passed down. I think the economy as a whole does better under the temporary burden of higher taxes than it does under the ongoing burden of borrowing money.

Fair Tax is a joke. It’s just another program to lower taxes for the people who are already paying a lower percentage than anyone else. There’s only two kinds of people who support the Fair Tax: millionaires and suckers.

I mostly agree about spending. But you got the tense wrong. Spending isn’t a problem; spending was a problem. This is a debt we’re talking about. The money has already been spent and we can’t unspend it now. Now we have to act like grown-ups and pay back the money we borrowed.

The good part is that if we pay off the debt, we can stop paying interest on borrowed money. Eliminating that interest will be a major cut in government spending all by itself. So you get a free headstart on cutting spending.

I can agree with at least one of Galveston’s points. It is worthless to try an raise taxes on any group that can shift their tax burden. Raise taxes on Exxon, consumers will pay those taxes indirectly (and most likely in a regressive manner).

But the danger to our economy is not debt, not taxes but the “threat” that we wouldn’t pay for things already bought (don’t give me the it isn’t a debt until the treasury issues a bond BS). There is nothing the financial systems loves more than someone who borrows a lot and makes the minimum payment.

The sad part is that the tea party thinks they stood up for something when the establishment republicans (Cantor especially) took used them, brandishing their “no compromise” stupidity like a weapon.

If you say so. Someone wanted to wait and see what would happen. Fine with me. When the FAA thing has been passed (and it will, of course) it will involve concessions to the right that has nothing to do with the FAA (unless it involves a shot at unions that just happen to involve the FA.

I call Reid a pussy because he has shown he is. Check posts from a couple years back and you’ll see that I used to be of the opinion that Reid was a gutless coward and that his pathetic little self was holding Obama back. Now I’m pretty sure he and Obama were made for each other.

-Joe