I guess I’d ask you to define what you mean when you say America survived? It sounded to me like you meant that there will still be a country called the United States, but that it won’t be particularly democratic. If that’s not your meaning, I apologize.
That’s exactly what I meant. The US has never been particularly egalitarian. It’s always been on a graytone between authoritarian and egalitarian. We’ve been back-sliding recently, but we’re still much better off than we were 200 years ago.
The forecast is gloomy, but there will always be those of us trying to improve things. That is, there is no doom.
I think we’re stumbling into a crisis without a precedent since the 1860-70s, and there was no climate change back then. It’s not just an American problem either; I think all of liberal democracy is facing a huge challenge right now from China, and to a lesser degree, from dysfunctional states that have tried democracy but have been unable to get out of their own way.
Consider this scenario: climate change brings unprecedented droughts that destroy agriculture in Central and South America, forcing massive influxes of immigrants, similar to the situation that Europe faced in the wake of ISIS. There will be more mass migration from unstable countries into more stable ones and this will be a poison pill for pluralism and liberal democracy. This isn’t imaginary, either; this scenario is inevitable.
I agree that the US has never been egalitarian, but I see that as a problem. I don’t particularly care if there is a country called The United States, if it is not a democracy. My concern isn’t that we have to change our stationary.
My concern is that America is moving backwards, away from increasing freedoms towards more repression, especially the freedoms of non-whites. A lot of American whites don’t really care that blacks are being oppressed; many are in favor of it and others aren’t going to make any effort to do anything about it because they benefit from the oppression and aren’t willing to make a sacrifice to change the status quo.
Seems like a plan might be to form 2 countries. Roughly along the Mason Dixon line. It will never formally happen, but it’s what it already is in a sense. People in other countries are more or less sitting back watching & waiting for the civil war. Like watching a train wreck.
I think that division is the best possible outcome. We can’t keep carrying the states that do not contribute, are hostile to science and who reject inclusive democracy. We’ve been operating under the delusion that we can civilize them, when in fact they are pulling us under. The challenges of the 21st century require a nation that is educated, dynamic and will tap into the resources of its entire population, regardless of race, a significant part of the country is just not up to the task.
Managed dissolution is unlikely, making collapse likely.
The problem is that there are a great many decent and civilized people in those states. Just not a majority. I’d rather not write off 30 to 45% of Texas or Kentucky. I’m willing to let Florida go though.
I think the map is far more closely correlated to urban vs. rural than to geography. Lots of states have left-leaning population centers with vast swaths (read: almost exclusively) of right-leaning districts outside of those cities.
I don’t see how division would necessarily solve the problem unless people within the ‘Blue States of America’ who had a problem living in BSA agreed to move to Red States of America. There’s no guarantee that they would. Many of the people we would rely upon to establish law and order would sympathize with the RSA and might actually try to foment an internal rebellion.
Yeah, it’s problematic. That’s why I favor a managed dissolution similar to the ending of Czechoslovakia where people are given an opportunity to move out and with established trade agreements. By not pursuing a managed approach, we face the prospect of collapse.
This goes to the heart of the divide. For many white Americans Black Lives Don’t Matter. Not just that non-white lives don’t matter. I hear what they say when their are no non-white people around. Its appalling and disgraceful.
In all sincerity, as a non-American, I think the USA has to split up. Probably into three countries. East Blue, West Blue and Red. Ideologically, East Blue and West Blue could work, but it might be difficult to because of distance (I could be wrong on that point). The USA cannot survive as a nation when there are only two political parties and one of them is not only not committed to democracy but is growing increasingly hostile to democracy. Inevitably, I think the Blue States will simply walk away and dare the Red States to do something about it.
Yeah, a large segment are actively hostile to blacks and another segment is smugly dismissive of their concerns, “America has never been egalitarian.”
Yes. This is the problem. I don’t see it as nation-ending, but the continuation of troubled times.
Yes. Those who want to split the union are abandoning those in less fortunate circumstances to even worse conditions. We need to be helping Americans caught in authoritarian states, not ignoring them.
You seem so sure of this. Are you one of the ones that will be voting him in again and then vote for him again as King For Life?
I agree that it has to split up and in the process, a massive reworking of our political processes to correct for the electoral college and gerrymandering which reinforce and reward non-democratic tendencies.
All these conversations about splitting up the US get bogged down in geography. What if it didn’t matter so much? What if individual communities – towns, city neighborhoods, rural counties – could elect their own national governments, paying taxes and adhering to laws accordingly?
I know there are a million hurdles, but aren’t there always?
Shit, this should probably be its own thread, but it’s Friday and I have stuff to deliver by 5:00. Maybe Monday …
Of course it can survive as a nation. Germany didn’t stop being Germany during the 3rd Reich. If Cuba became democratic tomorrow would it still be Cuba? I say yes.
Sometimes you just need some wars, either internal or external, to get things either back to way they were or to something better (see the US Civil War for the internal, WWII for external).
This is why I gave up Christianity. They act like they love everyone but are bigoted as all hell. My religion teacher said in class once, “I don’t like the term ‘homophobic.’” I thought to myself, “why, because that’s what you are and you don’t wanna admit it?”
Ack! Don’t split the states there! I live in Maryland, just below the Mason Dixon line (which I crossed twice while hiking Tuesday). We haven’t gone for a Republican president since 1988.
Split it on Civil War lines, maybe.