Neo probably doesn’t realize it, but he’s propounding one of the oldest of the Christian heresies, a variant on Gnosticism (classic Gnostics believed that matter was evil and spirit good, so therefore Jesus was just pretending to be a human; the variant was that the real God had had nothing to do with the Jews, along with anything else material, and it was actually a Great Deceiver who gave the Ten Commandments, called Isaiah, and all that good stuff – Jesus came to tell us about the real God.
Miracles? Define the term, and I will show you one, or not, depending on your definition.
C.S. Lewis points out that, with the sole exception of the Resurrection, every miracle was “super-natural” in the sense of “natural, but more so” – a short-circuiting of the natural way of the subject of the miracle occurring. Fig trees do wither and die, but not in an instant. Grape vines and yeast do turn water into wine, but not in a few moments in a jar. I think God works a lot through natural processes to work what I consider miracles, and I have seen a few of these in my life. Even David B. has testified to the two miracles that he has been present at. (See the REALL homepage.)
That said, I have said before that I believe that within a dozen years or so, you will see what amounts to clear divine intervention, albeit in a way that would permit a skeptic to reject it.
I have heard the theory put forth before that the OT God and the NT god are 2 different beings, the first actually being Satan. I can actually partially credit this belief on the face of it. Certainly God did lots of things in the OT that give him a substantially different image from the God that JC tells of. But then again he does things very out of character for Satan too. But this can probably be put down to efforts to deceive mortals, or the idea that God and Satan both appear through the OT, competing for the hearts of the Jews.
As to what miracles I would need to see? Something big and showy, witnessed by millions, that leaves behind plenty of physical evidence.
Storytime: When the Mormons first arrived in Utah, they found their first years’ crops being eaten by locusts. Yum. Fearful that they would have no food and starve to death in the wilderness of Deseret, they prayed to god, who sent seagulls - hundreds of miles inland - to eat up all the locusts. The Mormons survived, and today the seagull is the state bird of Utah. There is Seagull Monument in Temple Square in Salt Lake City.
The thing about this thread that I find most problematic is that the OP assumes that all miracles are from the Christian Bible. Isn’t the Angel Gabriel’s appearance to Muhammed a miracle?
Yes indeed this interpretation is quite similar to Gnostism, though unrelatedly so. I formed this interpretation upon strictly scriptural material many years before I’d ever heard of the Gnostics. I do not hold that material is inherently evil, though materialism is able to become so.
There are other “dogmas or cultisms” throughout the post N.T. era that have held the concept of two lords, even fundamental Christianity does this naming Satan as the first ruler in the hoop jumping attempt to reconcile their errant interpretations of some scripture, but this scenaroio is false according to scripture.
I agree that the O.T. “lord” (post Gen.2:3) performed no true miracles, that he merely manipulated extant elements, thus the quotation marks “miracles” in the original post.
According to scripture the first ruler “lord” was very definately NOT Satan, but Lucifer aka “the day star” etc. Although he wormed his way into the post, Satan became “the rod” or “hand” of Lucifer “the lord” in defiance of the will of The True God (Gen.1) that The Light remain separated from The Darkness.
The great Christian error lies not in confused belief; but in belief in The Confused.
Ah, but full disclosure please. I believe he spoke of the birth of his son and the miracle of modern medicine. Hardly the essence of the divine, unless of course you choose to see it that way.
Well, I wouldn’t call it clear if it permits rejection by skeptics. In fact, that would seem to make it unclear. But at least tell me what you have in mind; perhaps I can find a way to profit from it.
I’ll just put in a little bit from a Christian point of view :
Ptahlis, why, exactly, should you expect these miracles to occur? My best guess is that you would believe if there was some great sign from God to convince you. The short answer is that God won’t work the way you want to ( maybe I’ll add more on that later.).
Maybe you agree, and want to know, “Then why were there miracles for people back then and not for us nowadays?” My answer would be that these miracles had an historical purpose; also, there has been a change throughout history, in the sense of God’s relation to humanity.
The major Christian divisions of history would be the time of choosing and building the Hebrew nation (Old Testament), the duration of Jesus’ life and the time after his ascension and the coming of the Holy Spirit ( 50 days after the Resurrection to the present time).
In the earlier times, we find that God wishes to preserve a select group of people and make sure that the message (the promised Messiah, in addition to other important beliefs like the nature of God) do not die out. So he sets them aside, talks to certain people, and, when necessary, uses miracles to effect their preservation and to confirm to them that they have a God of power. Such miracles include the battles for Canaan (e.g. Jericho’s walls tumbling down, the day lengthening) the birth of Abraham’s child Isaac (to a very aged couple), and the deliverance from Egypt. Many times God reminds them, “I am the One who brought your fathers out of Egypt” and it is His hope that they not forget this. Still, we see they do forget (as mentioned, the golden calf) and find it is not always so easy to hold to belief even when you witness miracles. During this period, we do have one instance of someone asking for a sign – and getting it (Gideon, though he also gets more than he asks for in the bargain. God has chosen him as a judge, so it becomes necessary to train him or convince him. See Judges 6 for the story).
So, by the time Jesus is born, Judaism and the Jews are well-established. Their Roman rulers did not destroy their faith in God. Jesus is born, and performs miracles throughout his life, some demonstrating great power. So why the miracles this time? I would say that these miracles are not necessary to preserve his life (his wisdom usually gets him out of those problems) , but really as a display of his power and his origin. Note that this means he was mostly trying to convince those closest to him, the disciples, and some others, so that he would have a cadre of believers to spread the message. John gives the most references to the idea that Jesus’ miracles pointed to his divinity :
When speaking to “the Jews”, Jesus says ,
Which brings us on to today. After Jesus ascended, the disciples waited until the Holy Spirit came to them, who provided them with the power and courage to begin the spread of Christianity. They did indeed perform miracles, and I do believe that miracles occur even today, though probably of a different nature than what you’re looking for.
This is simply an attempt to explain why the great miracles of the past don’t occur so often anymore : As I see it, there’s no need for such miracles. I’ll add one more note from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. After the two die ( a poor beggar and a rich man who ignored him all his life), the rich man calls up to Abraham, and asks him to send Lazarus as a messenger to his brothers and warn them of what will happen. The exchange with Abraham proceeds :
Note that that’s not intended answer everything on this subject, it’s just something to consider. ( The people in this case were Jews, so they really ought to have believed Moses and the Prophets)
Okay, it’s been more than a little bit. I intend this post not necessarily to invite debate; I’m simply hoping to provide you with one perspective. I may not respond to questions not about what I’ve posted here – just a disclaimer.
panama jack
(all Biblical texts from NIV)
Lord, who may dwell in your sanctuary? /Who may live on your holy hill?
He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous …
… who keeps his oath even when it hurts… - Psalm 15
I am not excluding (intentionally anyway) Muslim miracles, or even Hindu miracles (assuming they have tales of such.) When I allude to a miracle of grand proportions I use the OT because that’s really all I am familiar with. Besides which, I am trying to keep on the theme of miracles that leave behind evidence and are witnessed by a lot of people. “Showy” miracles so to speak. If you notice, I didn’t bring up things like the burning bush, Paul’s conversion, or Jacob’s ladder, because they don’t meet the criteria I am interested in.
Actually, that’s probably the best answer yet posted from the Christian perspective. I wanted to know firstly whether there was scripture to say “He won’t be doing this stuff anymore, and here’s why…” But, I also wanted to know how, in the absence of such scripture, theists explained the difference to themselves. Thanks for the explanantion.
