Omniscience v Free Will (Part Two)

Great Debates
1

Hypothetical situation:

Let’s say a person is about to jump off a building to their certain death (at the bottom is a pool filled with shark, electric eels, alligators a lion … and just to make things interesting one drop of human blood).

So, they take one foot off the ledge and just (the very quantum second) before they fall they decide not to kill themselves.

Some Christians would say that God inspired them to live. Okay, lets take that.

When did God know they were going to die or not die? When did he know the outcome? Because, of course, knowing the outcome is very important from the perspective of free will. If God doesn’t use his omniscience to find out whether the person will jump or not, then what is He waiting for? If He does know before the person jumps then as per my proof in “Do we have free will…” God violates free will.

Have at ye, ye scurvy dogs!

“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff

2

I’m not sure what you mean by “inspired”. Did god change the person’s mind? Did he intervene and push the person back? If so, it doesn’t seem like free will. Any interaction at all, actually, seems like a negation of the concept of Christian free will.

"Every one is bound to bear patiently the results of his own example. "
-Phædrus

3

Glitch,

You neglegted to mention that Capt. Lance Murdock survived.

4

First let me say that CMKeller and others have a much better grasp on free will than do I.

But let me explain a possible view.

Let’s say that each second of a person’s life can be seen as a still frame (a picture if you will) combined together they form a person’s life. Now, lets imagine that for each person there is virtually limitless number of these frames. With each frame there is an almost infinite number of branches that could develop depending on a choice that is made. So imagine a tree structure. It starts with the first frame being the instant that someone came into existence. From there there were a hugh number of second frames based on choices made in the first. This tree grows as one lives one’s life. Of course those paths not traveled are meaningless.

Now in this scenario, lets say that God can see all these possible frames. He can see that the above mentioned person has in a number of different paths a frame that has the person killing themself. But other frames the choices made do not lead to that. In this way God can know that the person is capable of killing themself but until they make a decision that leads toward that path, he takes no action. This does not go against free will. If God brings to mind all the reasons someone has for living. Then he has not violated free will, the person can still choose to jump. If they choose not to it was still their own choice.

Man is free to choose his own path, God just may give guidance as man makes his choices.

Hope that makes some bit of sense.

Jeffery

5

Boy, I botched that one. Glitch - 0.

Okay, take 2 or is that 3?

Hypothetical situation:

A person is commiting suicide, lets say by jumping off a building.

At what point does God know whether they will jump or not?

I have been lead to believe, in another thread, that God will, on at least some occasions, inspire people not to kill themselves (and lets ignore the problem of divine inspiration as free will violation for the moment). This means he must know that they actually intend to die, or He doesn’t know He just isn’t taking any chances.

So, if it is #1 (He knows) we have a problem. Since He, from “Do we have free will…” it has been established that God effectively determines the events we will face. So, God knows that this person will face suicide, and knows that they will either jump or not jump. As in “Do we have free will…” knowing the event, choosing the event and knowing the outcome form a triad which blows free will to bits.

So, if it is #2 (He doesn’t know) what does that say about God? If in this hypothetical situation, where clearly somebody getting up to the point of considering suicide is in pain, why wait? If God waits until the last possible moment how does He know when is the last possible moment without omniscience, or limited omniscience? If God doesn’t know the outcome of this event how can the Christian guarentee that everybody will get a fair shake at salvation be true?

I think either way there is some serious implications about the perceived nature of God.

Comments? Opinions? Ridiculing flames for botching the first one? :stuck_out_tongue:

“Glitch … download” - Glitch’s final action. sniff

6

“Comments?”

My suspicion is that you aren’t going to get an answer to the question you are trying to ask. People are likely to respond with metaphors that offer little explanatory power, or say things like “God is outside of time, so ‘the last possible instant’ is meaningless to Him”, even though that isn’t addressing the question that I think you are asking. I don’t know a better way to ask it, though. That’s just my bet. If anybody wants to prove me wrong, I’ll be very happy about it :).

7

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Glitch:
**Boy, I botched that one. Glitch - 0.

Okay, take 2 or is that 3?

Hypothetical situation:

A person is commiting suicide, lets say by jumping off a building.

At what point does God know whether they will jump or not?
Good one!
My “take” is that God, if he is omniscient, must know before they’re born whether they will jump or not. If he has given man absolute free will, however, there is nothing God can do about it.

As for intervention by God - perhaps there are “signs” from God everywhere and all the time but man either blocks them or acknowledges them as the result of his own state of mind at any given time?

8

Here’s the answer:

God knew whether that person will jump or not even before that person was born. Even before the Earth was created, in fact.

If the above assertion is wrong, God is not all-knowing.

Don’t allow anyone to weasel out this with stuff about God being out of time, etc.

Every argument I’ve seen is a red herring.

My humble opinion, of course.

I don’t have to do drugs to mess up my head. I went to Catholic school.

9

If that’s the case, God is not omnipotent.

I don’t have to do drugs to mess up my head. I went to Catholic school.

10

UppityWoman:

The critical flaw with your reasoning, IMO, is that if God knew whether they would jump or not, AND He created the universe in which they would face the event of jumping or not, then there is no free will.

He choose the event, and knew the outcome.

Imagine I have 3 dice.

#1 always rolls a 1.
#2 always rolls a 3.
#3 always rolls a 6.

Now, the dice have 6 sides so they each have 6 “choices” but if I choose which die gets rolled then by knowing the outcome I have determined the whole ball of wax. This is certainly not free will (see “Do we have free will or is God omniscient?” for longer more detailed proofs).

11

I take your point, but, logically, he can choose to use his omnipotence or choose not to use it, correct?

12

Ok, could you explain this a little more fully? And I will go read the other thread, as well.

Where I believe this proof fails is that die do not have consciousness. Doesn’t that make a difference? I believe it does.

13

So god is telling this person about the possibilities they already realize? How does that change their mind?

Nonetheless, they are still happening; as are we. Especially since we choose to roll them. They aren’t rolling themselves. :wink:

"Every one is bound to bear patiently the results of his own example. "
-Phædrus

14

Uppity:

It probably does for this simple example, but if you allow to make the example a little bit more complex it may be a bit harder to follow but … well, you’ll see. :wink:

Imagine, I am a demi-god. My only powers are omniscience and the ability to pick which events will occur.

So, I have this person in front of me. I use my omniscience and determine that if asked “Pick a number” while standing before a demi-god he will pick “5”. If asked “Pick a word” while standing before a demi-god he will pick “dog”. Note, that being a free willed person he can pick and number or word he wants, I just happen to know the ones he will pick.

So, he is standing before me. If I ask him “Pick a number”, he says “5”. If I ask him pick a word, he says “dog”. Now, this is an inconsequential decision. But lets say, that I also now, that if he says “dog” then a lightning bolt will fry him (I am omniscient afterall). If he says “5”, then a million dollars will land in front of him.

By choosing the event (I am the one asking the question) and knowing the outcome, I determine his future.

So to tie it back to the suicide example. By picking the event “Person X will face suicide” as opposed to picking “Person X will face a barking dog”, and by knowing the outcomes (Person X will at the last second not jump vs Person X will get biten) then we have a free will problem, because I have effectively choosen the person’s outcome.

15

Glitch, I think people get confused with your examples which are a bit “removed” from “reality”. Here is what I would use as an example:

A person who lives at 1743 Main Street is contemplating suicide while listening to the radio. An meteorite falls from the sky and destroys the house at 1745 Main Street, horribly killing all of those inside. The news announcer on the radio is reading a report about the accident, but there is a mistake about the specific address in the report he is reading on the air. If the mistake is to say that the house which was destroyed was 1743, the suicidal man will believe that his family has died and that he has nothing left to live for, and will commit suicide. If the mistake is to say that the house which was destroyed was 1747, then the man will merely be reminded of his family which loves him, and will not commit suicide (and God, being omniscient, knows this to be true). Therefore, the “mistake” event can be seen to be controlling whether this man commits suicide or not. Since the “free will” of a “conscious mind” is not controlling the mistake event, and if the natural state of the world which causes this mistake is the direct result of the way that God planned for the natural world to operate since the instant of creation, how can one say that God is not determining whether the person commits suicide or not by choosing which mistake occurs?

16

So to tie it back to the suicide example. By picking the event “Person X will face suicide” as opposed to picking “Person X will face a barking dog”, and by knowing the outcomes (Person X will at the last second not jump vs Person X will get biten) then we have a free will problem, because I have effectively choosen the person’s outcome.**
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do “get” it now. I had to go away and think it through. My brain works differently than yours (slower, for one thing).

Looking at it from all angles, I can not now see how God’s omniscience and man’s free will can logically co-exist.

Now I’ll be reading these threads and thinking about this for weeks or months. Thanks. Thanks a lot. (<—imagine smiley here because I don’t know how to do them)

17

UppityWoman:

When you submit a reply there should be a link on the left “Smilies Legend”. It tells you everything you need to know.

But just as an example, to create this :slight_smile:
you would type a colon “:” followed immediately by a “)”.

18

Okay lets bring this down to more human terms. Let us say that there is an actual psychic. This person has no power beyond being able to see the future. Now this person encounters someone that they “see” will be hit by a bus. They yell to the person to not cross the street. If the person heeds their warning fine, if not then boom, roadkill. Did this person have free will? Yes, they were given some information then they choose how to use it. Maybe the psychic should have tried to stop or delay the bus, but what if they tried and still saw the person getting killed but this time by a car. They could decide that it was meant for this person to die, but it could also be they need to deal with the person that will get hit.

Then why is it assumed that God knowing what we will do has taken away our free will. You were set into motion because your parents got together and made a baby. Then the resulting life you have lived has been due to a collection of choices made by you and others. Just because God knows what you are going to do and when does not take away your free will. In fact, in Glitch’s example, if God had stopped the person before the instant they were about to jump, that would have been taking away their free will. Besides he did not stop them, he just reminded them how much they mean to everyone around them.

Jeffery

19

Because God made the universe, and in so doing set in motion a universe that would have specific events. God creates the events we will experience. As the creator of the universe He must have known what events would occur unless you want to believe that God just picked a universe at random.

It isn’t knowing the outcome that is the problem. The problem is knowing the outcome and choosing the event in the first place.

20

StrTrkr: Suppose your psychic sees two possible futures. In one future, the psychic observes himself yell “Dude, watch out for the bus!” and sees the person crossing the street dive out of the way. In the other future, the psychic observes himself yell “Hey, your shoe’s untied!” and sees the person crossing the street bend down to check and get squished by the bus. The psychic can now determine if the street-crosser will live or die by choosing what to yell (analagously, God can determine what you “choose” by controlling what events present themselves to you).