On Being a Confused Second-Class Citizen (Hep me Jeezus)

[panache45]

On November 2, the voters of Ohio passed Issue 1, turning hundreds of thousands of us into second-class citizens, without the same rights that every other Ohioan enjoys. Since I was born and raised in this state, I’ve never been a second-class citizen before, and I’ve spent the past two weeks trying to figure out what this means, and what is expected of me.

Do I still have to pay taxes? Do I especially still have to pay taxes to put other people’s kids through school, so they can be taught to have the same “values” as their parents?

Can I still vote? And if I do, will my vote still count as much as everyone else’s? And can I now vote to limit the rights of other minorities?

Do I need to get a green card? Am I free to travel outside the state, or the country, or will I be turned back at the border?

Do I still have the right to own property?

Can I still have a driver’s license? A passport?

If I take public transportation, do I have to sit in the back?

Can I use the same restrooms and water fountains and lunch counters as anyone else?

Should I be afraid of the government seizing my savings and investments?

If I had kids, would they have to go to separate (but equal) schools?

Do I have to register somewhere so everyone can know where I live, like a sexual predator? Will I have to wear a tracking device around my ankle?

Am I now required to go to Church every week, lest I be considered a Godless heathen?

If I’m ever accused of commiting a crime, will I get a fair trial? Should I be afraid of a lynch mob?

Should I be surprised if someone burns a cross (or a pink triangle) on my front lawn?

Will someone come by to tattoo a number on my forearm?

Can I continue singing in a Gay Men’s Chorus, or will that be considered a disruptive assembly?

When I retire, can I still get social security and Medicare?

If I try to fight for my civil rights, should I fear being attacked with fire hoses and German shepherds?

Will my name appear on a list, preventing me from boarding an airplane?

Will I have to live in a ghetto or internment camp?

Do I, and hundreds of thousands of other people, have to remain in this state where we’re not wanted, or should we take our talent and productivity - and millions of tax dollars - to another state, where we’d be equal citizens with everyone else? Or do we have to stay here and go down with the ship?

Do I have to spend money in this state, or should I go out of my way to buy things from states where people are appreciated for the unique individuals that they are?

Should I remain in a state whose governor and both senators and leading newspapers opposed Issue 1 - not because they valued me or my rights, but because they valued my tax revenues? And should I remain in a state whose electorate cannot even be trusted to vote in their own best interest?

This is all so very confusing. You’d think the State of Ohio would have a pamphlet or toll-free number or web site, explaining my rights and responsibilities. Because it’s not easy being a second-class citizen. Especially in a third-rate state.

[Captain_Amazing]

Actually, your status didn’t change at all. Gay marriage wasn’t allowed in Ohio on November 3rd, but it also wasn’t allowed on November 1, either. What happened on election day, was that the people of Ohio put in the constitution a line denying you a right you hadn’t had. But, to answer your questions.

Do I still have to pay taxes? Do I especially still have to pay taxes to put other people’s kids through school, so they can be taught to have the same “values” as their parents?

Yes

Can I still vote? And if I do, will my vote still count as much as everyone else’s? And can I now vote to limit the rights of other minorities?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Do I need to get a green card? Am I free to travel outside the state, or the country, or will I be turned back at the border?

No and yes.

Do I still have the right to own property?

Yes

Can I still have a driver’s license? A passport?

Yes, and Yes

If I take public transportation, do I have to sit in the back?

No

Can I use the same restrooms and water fountains and lunch counters as anyone else?

Yes

Should I be afraid of the government seizing my savings and investments?

No

If I had kids, would they have to go to separate (but equal) schools?

No

Do I have to register somewhere so everyone can know where I live, like a sexual predator? Will I have to wear a tracking device around my ankle?

No

Am I now required to go to Church every week, lest I be considered a Godless heathen?

No

If I’m ever accused of commiting a crime, will I get a fair trial? Should I be afraid of a lynch mob?

Yes, and no.

Should I be surprised if someone burns a cross (or a pink triangle) on my front lawn?

Yes

Will someone come by to tattoo a number on my forearm?

No

Can I continue singing in a Gay Men’s Chorus, or will that be considered a disruptive assembly?

Yes, and no

When I retire, can I still get social security and Medicare?

Yes

If I try to fight for my civil rights, should I fear being attacked with fire hoses and German shepherds?

No

Will my name appear on a list, preventing me from boarding an airplane?

No

Will I have to live in a ghetto or internment camp?

No

Do I, and hundreds of thousands of other people, have to remain in this state where we’re not wanted, or should we take our talent and productivity - and millions of tax dollars - to another state, where we’d be equal citizens with everyone else? Or do we have to stay here and go down with the ship?

That’s up to you.

Do I have to spend money in this state, or should I go out of my way to buy things from states where people are appreciated for the unique individuals that they are?

Also up to you.

Should I remain in a state whose governor and both senators and leading newspapers opposed Issue 1 - not because they valued me or my rights, but because they valued my tax revenues? And should I remain in a state whose electorate cannot even be trusted to vote in their own best interest?

Still up to you.

[Ferret_Herder]

@Captain Amazing

Actually, your status didn’t change at all. Gay marriage wasn’t allowed in Ohio on November 3rd, but it also wasn’t allowed on November 1, either. What happened on election day, was that the people of Ohio put in the constitution a line denying you a right you hadn’t had. But, to answer your questions.

In other words, you’ve always been a second-class citizen. On November 2, the voters of your state opted to remind you of your proper “place.”

[matt_mcl]

Or how about this? Before November 2, you were unofficially denied equal rights. Now you are being officially denied them.

[Captain_Amazing]

No, before November 2, he was officially denied equal rights too. If he and his partner were to apply for a marriage license, it would have been denied.

[Jackmannii]

@panache45

Will I have to live in a ghetto or internment camp?

If this is a subtle slur on the city of Cleveland, it will likely not be appreciated.

[Blalron]

@matt_mcl

Or how about this? Before November 2, you were unofficially denied equal rights. Now you are being officially denied them.

This truly is disappointing. I can understand bigotry coming from one or two people (the stray Fred Phelps and Rick Santorums of the world) but for an entire State to say “Hey queers! Sit in the back of the bus!”…

Damn.

[furt]

@panache45

Do I still have the right to own property?

No. You must sell everything you have, mail me a check for the amount, then walk nude into a police station.

None of that is for being gay. It’s for writing an asinine OP.

[Homebrew]

@Captain Amazing

Actually, your status didn’t change at all. Gay marriage wasn’t allowed in Ohio on November 3rd, but it also wasn’t allowed on November 1, either. What happened on election day, was that the people of Ohio put in the constitution a line denying you a right you hadn’t had.

I disagree. Rights don’t come from the government but are inherent in being a citizen and a person. Governments are created to protect those rights. Only when people concede to allow a government to limit their rights do they cease to exist or are curtailed. All rights are existent until denied. The fact that the right wasn’t explicitly denied means their equal rights were being infringed had a gay couple applied for a marriage license and been denied. As a consequence of this amendment a right that was previously been infringed upon is being denied legally.

This means his status did change from aggrieved citizen to second-class citizen.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Homebrew

All rights are existent until denied. The fact that the right wasn’t explicitly denied means their equal rights were being infringed had a gay couple applied for a marriage license and been denied. As a consequence of this amendment a right that was previously been infringed upon is being denied legally.

I’d say the reverse. Rights are nonexistant until recognized. The gay couple who applied for a marriage license on November 1 was treated the same as the couple who applied for one on November 4. Therefore, their status didn’t change.

[Frank]

@Jackmannii

If this is a subtle slur on the city of Cleveland, it will likely not be appreciated.

You do know the origin of the word “ghetto”, don’t you?

[Thudlow_Boink]

@panache45

On November 2, the voters of Ohio passed Issue 1, turning hundreds of thousands of us into second-class citizens, without the same rights that every other Ohioan enjoys.

No, no, no. You have exactly the same rights as everybody else: you have the right to marry a person of the opposite sex, but not to marry a person of your own gender.

Admittedly, that’s kind of like how “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” (Anatole France)

[Jackmannii]

@This Year's Model

You do know the origin of the word “ghetto”, don’t you?

Supposedly derived from a district in Venice, Italy. There is no Venice in Ohio that I know of.

Canal Winchester, yes, but no Venice.
Thank you for stimulating this diversion into etymology.

[Frank]

@Jackmannii

Thank you for stimulating this diversion into etymology.

Oh, you’re welcome. However, it was the meaning of the word to which I was referring. panache45 was obviously using it as “the walled and gated area in which [gays] were required to live.” How you got to a potential slur on the residents of Cleveland is beyond me.

[MaxTheVool]

@This Year's Model

Oh, you’re welcome. However, it was the meaning of the word to which I was referring. panache45 was obviously using it as “the walled and gated area in which [gays] were required to live.”

Oh, you mean the GAY-to. (That’s far too obvious a term for it not to have already been used…)

[JohnBckWLD]

@panache45

If I’m ever accused of commiting a crime, will I get a fair trial? Should I be afraid of a lynch mob?..Should I be surprised if someone burns a cross (or a pink triangle) on my front lawn?..Will someone come by to tattoo a number on my forearm?

As a white, non-Jewish member of the GLBT community, I find those queries ‘questionable’ at best & disgusting at their worst. You may even be single-handedly perpetuating the ‘they’re prone to excessive drama anyway’ stereotype.

Go find a nice progressive pastor, have a ceremony, tie the knot, draw up the papers that make you both legally and finacially bound to one another and stop comparing yourself to charred Black men and Jews in ovens.

[Homebrew]

@Captain Amazing

I’d say the reverse. Rights are nonexistant until recognized. The gay couple who applied for a marriage license on November 1 was treated the same as the couple who applied for one on November 4. Therefore, their status didn’t change.

One of the things about strict constructionalists that bugs the shit outta me is that y’all fall back onto garbage about “original intent” and “plain meaning” but ignore the actual words of the Federalists who helped shape and form this nation.

It has been several times truly remarked that bills of rights are, in their origin, stipulations between kings and their subjects, abridgements of prerogative in favor of privilege, reservations of rights not surrendered to the prince. Such was MAGNA CHARTA, obtained by the barons, sword in hand, from King John. Such were the subsequent confirmations of that charter by succeeding princes. Such was the Petition of Right assented to by Charles I., in the beginning of his reign. Such, also, was the Declaration of Right presented by the Lords and Commons to the Prince of Orange in 1688, and afterwards thrown into the form of an act of parliament called the Bill of Rights. It is evident, therefore, that, according to their primitive signification, they have no application to constitutions professedly founded upon the power of the people, and executed by their immediate representatives and servants. Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing; and as they retain every thing they have no need of particular reservations. “WE, THE PEOPLE of the United States, to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” Here is a better recognition of popular rights, than volumes of those aphorisms which make the principal figure in several of our State bills of rights, and which would sound much better in a treatise of ethics than in a constitution of government.

The original intent was that citizens of the United States are free to do as they damned well please except in cases where they’ve explicitly given their government reign. The rights belong to the people and are vested in the government.

If rights are granted to the people by government, then we are subjects to a king rather than free men; because then we are at the whim of our rulers. In this context, Liberal (née Libertarian) is absolutely right when he goes on about people being slaves to a piece of paper.

Read the preample again. “We the PEOPLE …” established this nation, not the government.

I’m still pissed off at Liberal for his stabbing me in the back a couple of months ago, but damn y’all for pushing me towards his Siren song.

[Guinastasia]

@JohnBckWLD

Go find a nice progressive pastor, have a ceremony, tie the knot, draw up the papers that make you both legally and finacially bound to one another and stop comparing yourself to charred Black men and Jews in ovens.

The problem there is, you spend thousands of dollars on these papers…and they might not even be legally binding. Relatives can contest the will and you can’t do a damned thing about it.

Marriage grants them automatically and binding for a lot less.

[Jackmannii]

@This Year's Model

Oh, you’re welcome. However, it was the meaning of the word to which I was referring. panache45 was obviously using it as “the walled and gated area in which [gays] were required to live.” How you got to a potential slur on the residents of Cleveland is beyond me.

In case you’re wondering, any hearing loss due to the loud WHOOSHing sounds will be temporary.

[Bambi_Hassenpfeffer]

@Guinastasia

The problem there is, you spend thousands of dollars on these papers…and they might not even be legally binding. Relatives can contest the will and you can’t do a damned thing about it.

Marriage grants them automatically and binding for a lot less.

And more to the point, our contractual arrangements with each other only bind us – they do not bind third parties in the way that marriage licenses do. We do not enjoy the right of spousal privilege, for example, nor the right to pension or healthcare benefits. We cannot currently enter into an arrangement that is in every way equivalent to marriage, no matter how many contracts, wills, and other arrangements we sign.