On comparing martial arts

In My Humble Opinion
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I’ll start off with a few disclaimers - first, I know practically nothing about the various forms of martial art. Second, I put this here with the understanding that there likely isn’t going to be a factual answer and isn’t enough of a debate to fit in GD.

With that said, a thread in MPSIMS about Putin (and his Judo) got me thinking - all else being equal (fitness level, weight and height, no weapons, no safety restrictions); which martial art mastery would be most effective in a one-on-one fight? I’m vaguely aware of an American show called “MMA”, whose premise is to pit fighters of various styles against each other. I’m also aware that this usually ends up as a sweaty clusterfuck. It’s also classed as entertainment, and appears an intrinsically unscientific dick-waving contest.

However, the inner logical thinker in me says that if a master of combat form y beats a master of combat form x in a clear majority over a thousand fights, with all else equal, then combat form y is superior to combat form x, or at least will more often than not beat combat form x.

Here’s where my ignorance comes in. I have a sneaking suspicion that even if y will beat x, x could beat z, which in turn could beat y (and so on), that various forms will exploit weaknesses in other forms yet be beaten themselves by other forms, and so on and so forth. I suspect (again, speaking from ignorance) that ‘hard’ (Muay Thai, Taekwondo) and ‘soft’ (Aikido, Neijia) as well as the…restraint (the stuff mainly taught for tournament fighting versus…well, military originated CQC techniques like the USMC LINE and Israeli Krav Maga would be the obvious counterpoint) would be important factors in my convoluted x-y-z idea.

What are the opinions on this? If I can tack on a rider question; is there any martial art which is demonstrably superior against untrained oinks?

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[deleted]

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From your comments I’m assuming that you haven’t actually watched any MMA - that is, Pride, UFC, WEC or the like.

The reason I say this is because the very purpose of the sport’s creation was to answer this very question. Royce Gracie was a practitioner of a relatively obscure martial art - Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. BJJ is a more practical, pragmatic modification of the original Japanese version; you can look up youtube videos of various Gracies challenging esteemed members of various martial arts to full-contact fights. They almost invariably end up the same way - a takedown, a mount, punches in the face until the karate/judo/tae kwon do/etc master rolls over, and a coup de grace via lionkiller. Most traditional martial arts focus a single aspect - striking. Very few have groundwork of any kind, let alone any way to defend against the movement-denying grappling style of BJJ.

So, anyways, Royce Gracie wants to prove the superiority of his martial art. He starts the Ultimate Fighting Championship, a come-all-takers Dragon-Ball-Z style fighting tournament. Aside from restrictions on eye-gouging and fish-hooking, there were no gloves, no rules and no time limits. Opponents fought until one was rendered incapacitated or submitted. It was a pretty brutal scene as evidenced by the infamous first fight (starts at 5:00, violent).

But you wanted a one-on-one comparison of the martial arts, and that’s precisely what UFC1 represented. A few things became quickly clear through the course of the evening: other than a brawler push-them-down-and-kick-them-in-the-head barfight technique, martial arts that lack a grappling component are virtually useless against those that do. Judo, Jiu Jitsu and wrestling practitioners were by far the most successful. Unsurprisingly, Royce Gracie won while wearing a full gi, the uniform of his martial art and a huge liability in a fight. So, to answer your second question first: assuming your opponent doesn’t have friends to kick you in the head once you’re on the ground, a reasonably skilled BJJ practitioner should be able to subdue most average Joes in short order. Nobody likes getting punched in the face, and a decent rear naked choke can render one unconscious in under ten seconds.

Since then the mixed-martial-art scene has really become, well, mixed. Gone are the single-discipline styles of fighers - there are no more ‘karate master versus kickboxing expert’ matchups. Instead most successful fighters combine several techniques from numerous fields. Generally you will see; striking arts in boxing and muay thai, grappling techniques from both greco-roman and collegiate wrestling and textbook brazilian jiu jitsu techniques. Given the enormous amount of money floating through the sport right now, you can be assured that they’re plucking the most effective martial arts from the bin; but only to fit the rules of that situation. This is where most MMA-street fight comparisons fall apart - however given your thunderdome-style scenario I’d put overwhelming odds on the average MMA musclehead over any equivalently skilled “martial artist.”

Krav Maga may very well be the most effective, overall, since it emphasizes killing that motherfucker with the bottle on the bar or kicking his testicles in and soccer-kicking them in the throat once they’re down and running away the moment they stop moving. But unless Krav Maga training involves actually getting punched in the face (and I’m truly ignorant on that subject) I expect they’d react similarly to most purists when getting jabbed in the nose and give up a takedown in short order.

On the ground, BJJ is king. And fights always end up on the ground. And people who snicker during grappling combat are completely ignorant. IMHO, of course.

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Interesting read (especially regarding the importance of grappling moves in a style); thanks Tubes. As I said; I’ve only the vaguest awareness of MMA (it came up in the search on this board whist looking to see if this question has been discussed recently); read the wiki article and concluded it was in the mould of WWF and the like.

Bruce Lee on the issue said “The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt to any style" - given what Darwin said about adaptability this is not surprising. However, the fact that someone who is versed in multiple combat styles and can adapt to the situation as required would prove a more formidable opponent than a master of a single style is predictable (and therefore boring).

I was wondering about Krav Maga, which on face value seems like it would certainly demolish an average criminal assailant on short order, seeing the effectiveness on other styles would be quite interesting.

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Missed the edit window on account of watching the vids - those BJJ matches are incredible; a quick dash in, and once they’re on the ground it’s pretty much all over regardless of the other discipline (as pointed out, likely due to the lack of grappling technique taught by said discipline). They all end up floundering like fish.

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Kr. Kobayashi, while there’s some controversy over the implementation of so many rules (as I understand it, Royce Gracie himself left the league in disgust at the addition of a time limit) there’s absolutely no question that MMA is definitely not in the same vein as professional ‘wrestling’. It remains one of the most physically demanding sports and the margin for error in modern, professional UFC bouts is minuscule. If you’re actually interested in the effectiveness of more traditional martial arts, I suggest looking up some of the older UFC cards. Today it’s very much, as I said, a mix.

Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable than me can clarify things a little, but from what I’ve read and seen I’m under the impression that Krav Maga is very much more a discipline of mindset, than technique. It emphasizes quick, decisive, merciless aggression. Against Joe the catburgler it might work. However, rushing straight forwards against anybody training in “MMA” won’t accomplish very much. Without at least cursory knowledge of kickboxing and muay thai, both of which are capable of devastating strikes against an unguarded opponent, aggression alone won’t be very effective.

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I only have about a class and a half worth of experience with Krav Maga, but I think your assessment is correct. Krav Maga is about “disable your opponent right the hell now.” But that means it’s also about situational awareness (because any remotely practical martial art will acknowledge that the absolute best self defense is the Nike defense in which you haul your ass out of there), and adrenaline training, in which you learn how to think rationally through a situation where you may be attacked.