On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance"

The BBQ Pit
161

Right. You agree with the author so far, because like you he doesn’t pose it as a question, but reminds Christians that it’s a commandment.

Why is it moral cowardice to refrain from condemning others’ thoughts and considerations? The article addresses behavior toward other people as moral peers, regardless of revealed or hidden differences between you and them. It’s about acceptance, not tolerance of those differences, because they’re irrelevant.

Now, I can see why most people would be uncomfortable with that directive. Most folks didn’t much care for it the first time it was given either. It’s much easier to look down on someone for the things we think they are that we’re not than it is to be careful about how we ourselves act toward them.

162

Which is precisely my problem.

163

Appeal to the dictionary on this one? What do you think cowardice is?

It takes great courage to stand up in a Christian community and tell Christians to change their awful, wrong beliefs about homosexuality. This person doesn’t have that courage. He goes out of his way to say how little he cares if you hold such abhorrent beliefs as “homosexuality is a sin.” He either doesn’t have the desire or doesn’t have the courage to countermand this evil doctrine.

164

You have confused “moral cowardice” with “good tactics.”

Look, there’s two ways we can approach this problem:

We can try to convince a large number of people to change their deeply held moral beliefs.

Or:

We can try to convince a large number of people to change the way they interact with people with whom they disagree morally.

Now, if we could do the first, that would be awesome. But that’s a *hell *of a lot harder than doing the second one. And if we can get the second one, it’ll fix 90% of the problems gays face in contemporary society. On top of which, if it actually works, we’re in a much strong position to work on getting them to change those deeply held moral beliefs.

165

“Countermand?” Would you like a dictionary? You may not be aware of this, but the author actually has no signal authority over the doctrine of any established Christian church. Courage has nothing to do with it.

And he doesn’t have the desire to argue anyone out of a moral consideration because he’s trying to argue them into moral behavior.

166

Moreover, this is actually a whole different problem from the one that the author of the essay is addressing.

He’s not trying specifically to get conservative Christians to change their attitudes about homosexuality. Rather, he’s denouncing the whole self-righteous attitude of “God hates people that aren’t just like me”.

Which, as he notes, is held by a number of people of all religions and of no religion, and directed at an infinite variety of categories of “not-just-like-me”, including both traits that are viewed as actual moral failings and traits that are just “different”. That covers, according to the author, not just gays but also “fat people”, “people with nontraditional piercings”, “people who dress differently”, and “people who aren’t members of the dominant local religion”.

Bigotry against homosexuals is indeed a dreadful thing. But I think the essay’s author is spot-on in noting that ultimately, it’s just one particular manifestation of a much bigger dreadful thing: namely, the desire to bully, reject and hate others just for being different from the majority.

Kind of ironic to think that nonetheless his well-meaning essay will probably inspire more genuine self-questioning humility, and accomplish more to combat homophobia effectively, than your own mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations ever will.

167

Ooh, and now C. Robot had to read that twice…

168

Which doesn’t make it any more true…

169

Why would it do anything to combat homophobia at all? It validates homophobia as acceptable, as long as you push it with a smile.

170

No, you’re making the same mistake as Robot by confusing civility or politeness - “tolarance” - with love.

The author’s point is not “be nice to gays, even if you think they are sinful.” Its “love all people, even if they are different than you.”

If you are loving someone, it literally does not matter if they are a sinner or not. As the guy says, it’s completely irrelevant. If a particular individual thinks that gay sex is not God’s perfect plan, but doesn’t care and truly loves and respects gay people – I can’t call that homophobia.

171

Let’s go for a third time for Condescending Robot, just so it’ll sink in.

I’ll throw in an Amen while I’m at it :wink:

172

Someone who believes that they have been told by God that homosexuality is evil is not going to be convinced to act as though it isn’t by a well meaning essay on the internet. They need to be told that there is no God, and to grow up and act accordingly.

173

No, but they will be convinced by a well delivered sermon, repeated regularly, that hits the core of their belief system.

Christ said Love. Period. That is the primary commandment. We don’t get the luxury of choosing WHO to love. The words of Christ are crystal clear, and trump anything from the Old Testament or from a few words from Paul. Hammering that message home is a VERY effective way to shift people over, and it has been very effective. This has been a core part of the various movements - that reminder has been used repeatedly. You can find it in the hearings of the Presbyterian Church, when they started ordaining Gays and Lesbians. You can find it with other sects who have opened their eyes and arms as well.

174

I’ll let the advocates of the different approaches speak for themselves here:

The reason why the essay author’s approach is likely more effective than Condescending Robot’s at actually making some people less bigoted against homosexuality is simple.

It’s because the essay author comes across as a sympathetic and compassionate person pointing out that EVERYBODY is “wrong” or “sinful” when judged by someone of different beliefs. So we should all stop letting those judgements dictate our attitudes and behavior towards others.

Condescending Robot, on the other hand, comes across as a self-righteous jerk interested only in lecturing those of different beliefs about how wrong and sinful they are.

175

You don’t think an internet essay can convince someone to act nicer to gays - but you do think they can be convinced to abandon belief in God entirely via the same medium?

You might want to think that one through a little more.

I agree that Condescending Robot’s mean-spirited, smugly self-righteous, holier-than-thou condemnations won’t do anything to combat homophobia, but I think it’s going a bit far to say that his antics actually validate homophobia.

…

Oh, wait, you were talking about the guy who wrote the essay, weren’t you? Never mind, then.

176

Yeah! But you just can’t stop there! You need to ferret out those hate-mongers, sterilize them, isolate them on an island and let them all die so the rest of us tolerant people can live in peace!

After all, I’m pretty sure they have already been told that there is no God and it’s time to grow up…it’s just not happening as fast as you would like to think it should.

177

No, not “everybody” is wrong or sinful, and neither you nor the author of the article actually believe that, so let’s cut the bullshit.

178

Tattoos are banned in Leviticus. Spousal abuse doesn’t feature from what I recall, but it is repudiated by Paul (as are expensive clothes and gold jewelry). On the other hand, belonging to a biker gang and doing drugs aren’t sins of themselves from what I can tell.

179

You’re really good at telling other people what they believe despite what they say they believe. How do you do that?

In a year of sermons, I might hear one about how other people are sinners - maybe. I’ll probably hear 50 about my own sins, though. But I guess you know better than Christians do about what they believe.

180

OK. The vast majority of Christians in America, and a supermajority so large as to make any other viewpoints basically irrelevant in the rest of the world, spend most of their time doing things like working to pass laws against the existence of homosexuals and stoning witches. I know you feel really great about being in the elite 1% that have figured out The Real Christianity; what does that get me when the 99% who are obviously doing it wrong show up at my door?