This isn’t clear, but I like this mother - and she likes me. We do talk. I just don’t run everything by her, nor does she tell me that when my daughter sleeps over on Saturday night, she’s going to church with them Sunday morning.
If she wanted to nix the friendship with the atheist, she could - she knows perfectly well what my daughters beliefs are. She’s choosing to let it continue - I suspect because she is interesting in saving my daughter. I find that amusing.
(Although Bible Study invites have, I think, come to an end. My daughter is a little too questioning in the group, and a little too solid in her instance that evolution is not “just a theory” but a scientific theory supported by mountains of scientific observation and evidence, a little too shocked at the idea that homosexuality is a sin, a little too accepting of the idea that she’ll probably have sex before she is married and that is an ok choice provided its made responsibly and respectfully, and a little too knowledgeable about what Buddhist or Muslims actually believe)
I did NOT give her Steig Larsson and wouldn’t give someone else’s minor child those books, to be clear. She’s gotten books from me that are available to her through the school library, but on weekends, in the summer, or when there is a waiting list for the book.
You have a moral obligation to raise your child as best you can. Not someone else’s child. Stop being the thought police.
As to what they are exposed to in school, thats between the school and the parents. Not some random parent of another kid in school.
I’m totally non-religious btw. Its not like I’m a fan of creationism. I would be equally annoyed if someone was trying to foist their religious views on my child. It is no one’s place to raise my child except me and their mother.
See, that’s one of the reasons I find this amusing. I’m UU, as is my daughter. Theology tends to fascinate UUs. I just got done teaching comparative theology to second and third graders (at that age its mostly holidays, although we spent a lot of time on the Four Noble Truths at a grade school level, and meditation - you can tie most religions together on meditation). Go for it. Proselytize away. However, when you have taken it upon yourself to expose my child to your worldview - I feel that you’ve given me implicit permission to expose yours to mine.
Some people have said “two wrongs don’t make a right.” But I don’t see anything wrong about what the other parent is doing. Wrong headed maybe, but not wrong. And since she is doing it, I’ll do her the favor of believing she isn’t a hypocrite.
Parents can’t protect their kids from exposure. I have a number of friends who said “my child will never play with guns.” Well, that lasts until the first playdate at the home of someone with a Nerfgun collection when they are five. Unless you helicopter your children, and supervise each of their playdates - or send them with a list of rules “Sally doesn’t eat meat (including fish and chicken), is not allowed to watch Disney movies or play with Barbies or Bratz dolls or any other game that gives a non-positive or superficial image of women” - it isn’t going to work. And frankly, if you send your kid to other parents homes with an unreasonable list, they don’t end up with many friends.
I believe the negative responses you’ve received here have been mostly because of your flippant remark about corrupting their daughter.
There is nothing wrong with loaning books you feel are appropriate to a child, but I can’t understand why you wouldn’t think to ask her mother first, especially when you seem to have a fine relationship with her.
I am the mother of two girls, 22 and 7. I wouldn’t want another adult loaning either (at twelve) of them anything without my knowledge, whether it be books or clothes.
As for her mother being choosy about what her daughter reads, I don’t see a problem with that at all. Kids don’t need to read adult books. I understand they can check them out. My seven year old could check out any book in our public library. That doesn’t mean she’s emotionally prepared for adult themes. I consider it my responsibility to limit what she reads (and watches and where she goes and who she talks to) and I sure wouldn’t like someone else undermining it, even if it is with classic literature.
As a parent of two kids, I think of it as my duty to provide a safe, semi-monitored environment for my kids and their friends. If I influence them, it is only indirectly by my actions. I don’t try to hoist upon them My Viewpoint of the world, even if I think that their opinions are naive, misled, or flat out wrong.
I’d never lend out a book or movie that I thought their parents would object to. That is completely overstepping my bounds. If I discovered that they were doing something objectionable such as taking my child to Atheist classes, I’d have a conversation with the parents. But this tit for tat attitude is odd and a tad alarming.
I think I’ll just put it this way: we are really not talking about parental authority here. We’re talking about parental wishes. If you consider the difference, maybe you’ll see why I don’t think this is a big deal, a usurpation, and so forth.
No, I doubt you have the right to do that. So what?
In general that’s probably true. But like I was saying, these are more reasonable and realistic terms: this is about what people expect or consider respectful, not about usupring authority. Expectations and respect are not always agreed upon and they’re not laws.
Oh, some more context for you all…this has been going on for five years - their respectful and deep for their age theological discussions (its a guarantee that during conferences one of their teachers will bring this up to me - and I’m assuming the other girls mother has heard the same), their friendship (the two of them are as tight as thieves), my daughters insistence on SCIENCE and her friends on FAITH. The trading of books. The only thing that is new, and the only thing changing the comfort level, is the inclusion of my daughter’s “church friends” at a party.
Marley you seem to be one of those non parents who think they know what it means to be a parent. Its OK, I used to be too. Under the right circumstances you get over that real quick. You can talk a decent game but you quite literally have no idea.
Which is not how you wrote it at first. Which is OK. I’m assuming you wrote it in a specific way to elicit responses. Otherwise why would you use words like corrupting?
This thread, and its discussion of “corrupting” a youngster with religious parents by giving her books, keeps reminding me of the old thread by Skald the Rhymer (Recommend some good books for a budding young skeptic) in which he proposes doing pretty much that to his cousin.
Because I forgot how literal many Dopers are. And because I got that half written and then had someone come up to me, and then wrote some more, and had someone come up to me, and then had to leave for work and hit submit without a careful rewrite for the very literal Dopers. Shit happens.
I think Marley is pretty realistic. We live in a mostly Christian but pretty diverse area. I had to deal with my kids getting exposed to “you don’t believe in Jesus, you are going to hell” fairly early. They’ve had to deal with Muslim kids at school being bullied. The Christian kids have had to deal with my daughter’s “assured atheism” for a long time (there is nothing like an eight year old evangelical atheist). They’ve been to a Pagan wedding. One of their teachers sent out an anti-Islamic rant to some parents she thought she knew well - my daughters class includes an Abdallah and a Hassan…
To expect that you’ll be able to insulate your children from ideas about faith (or any idea, really - I remember the day my first grade son came home with “George Bush is an idiot” - our house never contained the biggest W fans, but we really tried to have respectful conversations regarding the President around the kids - he didn’t get that at home) is unrealistic. They’ll pick it up from friends, media, teachers, and yes, other parents - who simply assume that their truth is true.
ETA: A friend of mine - another one of my daughter’s friends mothers - has tried very hard to insulate her girls from a lot of stuff. At twelve, they don’t watch anything other than G or PG movies (no PG 13). They haven’t been talked to about sex or boys. They aren’t allowed to read anything too exciting or challenging, they don’t have cell phones and are not allowed to be unsupervised by an adult…and her daughter is sneaking off in the morning to wear makeup and stuff her bra. They get it, whether you want them to or not. Unless maybe you move to Provo.
I went to both parochial and public schools. One of my closest friends growing up is a Jewish lesbian. Another is an atheist. We’ll be going to lunch tomorrow, as we’ve kept in touch all these years.
The key to dealing with just about anyone, be it in your social life or work environment, is to try and focus on your commonalities, and not your differences. It is a rare event when I meet someone with whom I have NOTHING in common.
I wonder about where you all grew up that harassment of people for their religion is commonplace. It certainly didn’t exist where I lived.
So, you’d be okay with chaining a kid in the cellar to keep him from being exposed to the sins of the world?
I’m not talking about indoctrination of someone elses child. That would be wrong - though the religious appear to be okay with it, if it is their indoctrination. I’m talking about exposure to other points of view, to other ideas. That’s why I let my kids go to religious activities.
How can any child grow up to be a functioning member of society with such a narrow education. Waiting until they graduate from Bible college is too late.
By the time I was twelve I already knew I was an atheist, and I took a serious beating from my father when I told him I wasn’t going to church any more. Perhaps ironically, I learned a lot of my dangerous ideas from library books that my dad couldn’t monitor if he tried – I got out so many and read through them so fast he couldn’t have kept up.
Good on you, Dangerosa. I wish there were more (hell, any) adults like you around when I was a kid. Maybe there were, but they kept their mouths shut, or maybe my parents kept me away from them.
I felt some responsibility for my niece and nephew’s education, because my sister is a religious nut. So I never hesitated even a second to express any opinions I had that were opposed to hers, just so the kids could see that not everyone saw things the same way and it was ok to disagree. No idea really whether it worked or not – my niece is now a lawyer and an atheist, my nephew is a mostly unemployed semi-alcoholic gambler who’s totally silent on his religious views.
So, you’d be okay with chaining a kid in the cellar to keep him from being exposed to the sins of the world?
I’m not talking about indoctrination of someone elses child. That would be wrong - though the religious appear to be okay with it, if it is their indoctrination. I’m talking about exposure to other points of view, to other ideas. That’s why I let my kids go to religious activities.
How can any child grow up to be a functioning member of society with such a narrow education. Waiting until they graduate from Bible college is too late.