My daughter is a twelve year old UU atheist. She’s pretty darn sure there is no God, in good atheist fashion, and in good Unitarian fashion, is aware that there are multiple paths and beliefs worthy of respect - IF there were to be a God, there certainly wouldn’t be a single truth that could be objectively evaluated as The Truth.
One of her very good friends is an Evangelical Christian. The girls have been having theological discussions for years (their teachers find them interesting and tell me about them). Her friend is an interesting girl - bright, who reads books I’m sure her mother has no idea about the content (she read Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and sequels, and her mother was upset about it, but she read Harry Potter).
Their family has been picking up my daughter for Church Night once in a while this year. I suspect to “save her soul.” It probably isn’t going to work for that - its hard to convert a UU Atheist to One Truth, but my daughter has fun with the games - she finds the Bible study a little boring, yet at the same time amusing in that “can you believe they believe” sort of way.
So I’ve been loaning this girl books. And movies. One of my friends asked if she should loan her something in particular - since the family is so conservative. My response “well, they’ve been trying to convert my daughter, I figure I get to try and corrupt theirs.” (Note, if she hadn’t already read Girl With the Dragon Tattoo, I wouldn’t be so flippant - but this girl is going to get her hands on contraband literature…and what she needs is grown ups she can talk to about it if the subject matter is confusing.)
My daughter is hosting a party. Some of her church friends will be there. As will this girl. I’m looking forward to it.
Dangerosa, I don’t know what exactly you have in mind, but it comes across like you are up to no good. Yes, they have taken your daughter to church functions, but they have done so with your knowledge and permission, yes? I would really really not like it if I let my daughter go to a sleepover (expectations of popcorn, movies, nail polish and gossip) and the parent in charge had expectations of …what? Undermining the religion that I believe in and am teaching my children? That’s not nice. I don’t think you would appreciate then saying they are taking your daughter to church Night and portraying it as a mostly social scene if it was, in fact, much more like recruitment night. You don’t have the right to do that with someone else’s 12 yo daughter. As a parent, I would not want my daughter to come to your house again after that. And I would be very upset if an ADULT were encouraging my daughter to keep secrets from me. Surely, as a parent yourself, you can appreciate that? Doing sneaky stuff with other peoples children is not good.
Do you really not understand the difference between taking a kid somewhere with the parents’ full knowledge and consent, and giving something to a kid behind her parents’ back?
But Christians are stupid, so of course it’s OK. :rolleyes:
I’m as atheisty as they come and I’m not seeing the issue here, you seem to be er upset your daughter is exposed to christians. She hasn’t complained they are harassing her and seems to enjoy the bible lessons, she is getting to an age where she can make up her own mind. There seem to be a certain kind of atheist that scream whenever they see a trace of religion in the world, not just government mandated but any.
Shit borrow books to their daughter but don’t do it for revenge.
I ain’t the one partner, so don’t go making assumptions about me. I’ll make this simple for you: Being upfront about your plans with someone else’s child=O.K., having ulterior motives when supervising someone else’s child=NO-NO.
Does that clarify it for you at all? Because religion is only the side issue here really.
I think that’s exactly what the OP is worried about, albeit (probably) unconsciously. By trying to enlist her daughter as a conspirator in some silly mind games, the OP might feel she still has some measure of control over her daughter’s own mind.
In other words, eh, she’s not being an atheist, she’s being a worried parent. Nothing too remarkable.
ETA: Except when the daughter wises up, the clever plan is liable to backfire and the young gal might become a converted Christian rebel just to sass Mom off. (Oh noes!) Then we’ll probably see some really entertaining Pit posts from the OP.
I’m a hard core atheist and I agree with OldnCrinkly. The parents aren’t sneaking your daughter to church, they are inviting her to come with them. She, and you as the parent, can make an informed decision and decline the invitation.
Trying to covertly undermine the other parent’s authority over their kid sounds like a great way for your daughter to lose a friend and it is showing less respect for the other parents than they have shown to you.
In theory this situation should have a sort of symmetry of jurisdiction to it, but in practice, you’re not going to just be dealing with the hard facts of the situation - you’re going to be dealing with the perceptions of the other people - which probably does not include an appreciation of the logical symmetry of jurisdiction.
That’s neither a reason to do it, or abstain from it - just an observation. You just might need to measure whether you have a sufficient appetite for whatever level/probability of conflict may ensue.
Yea, I’d say doing something with someone else’s twelve year old that you know their parents would disapprove and without their parents knowledge is a pretty big no-no. They seemed to have gotten your permission for Church Night, if you think they might have a problem with the books your lending her you should do the same.
Not everyone would agree with that, so it’s not really universal.
If the girl’s parents are aware and OK with this, then there’s nothing wrong going on. If they girl’s parents aren’t aware, then this feels wrong to me.
I don’t think 12-yr old children should be used as ammunition in this manner. If you have a problem with them taking your daughter to religious events once in a while, you’re the parent, and the one responsible - say no.
Both children will be old enough to make their own life decisions in a few years.
Ew, this just sounds creepy. You want to knowingly give a child material that you know her parents would find objectionable, simply because they have invited your daughter (presumably with your permission) to something that you find objectionable to some degree, but obviously not enough to actual forbid your daughter from attending.
You think parents own their children? That’s creepy. I think at first they get to make decisions, later they move from decision-maker to offering guidance.
There probably are people who don’t think books are universally A Good Thing for Children, and calling it universal was hyperbole. I presumed that in a place like the SDMB, the goodness of books (in general) would be considered pretty universal.
I don’t think giving the child a book is such a big problem, and if it is to those parents they are so far over a certain line that it becomes even more necessary to give her the book. Even by law, parents do not own children and they can’t completely do with them as they see fit. By law they can probably prevent them from accessing certain books, but that would still make them wrong to do that. They can probably force them not to eat vegetables, but you would still offer them some if they showed up at your house looking peaky.
If you give her the book, they can always take it away from her. That would be a good incentive to talk to them about freedom of religion, educating yourself and making up your own mind. If they are remotely fit to be parents, they will guide her through reading the book while offering their own perspective. If they are unfit to be parents and want to own the girl’s mind then the book becomes necessary to her freedom, and should be given to her regardless of what her parents think.
The most important thing is not the parents in this matter. It’s the girl, and her right to make up her own mind. That trumps whatever right the parents have in deciding what to teach her.
I was in the position of your daughter, and I want to warn you you risk jeopardizing your daughters friendship.
Back when I was a kid, the Christian parents of my friend were very sweet people. Very hospitable and kind. But they didn’t see my atheism and their faith as equal. For them, them trying to convert me amounted to giving me a very great gift. But if I would have tried the saem with their daughter, they would regard that as me trying to rob their innocent little girl of the greatest gift they could have given her. As corruption of the worst kind.
For religious parents, atheiasm and religion are no equal things. They don’t treat it as light hearted as you do. The parents of my friend discouraged her from seeing me the moment she shared with her parents that “talking to ma made it seem like it all wasn’t true” . I lost my friend and I lost the friendship of her parents.
While I love me some good child corruptin’, I think the best way to convert people to any religion (or non-religion) is to lead a good example. The moment you get caught delivering Jesus-bashing contraband to this girl, the parents are just going to throw their hands up and say, “Typical atheists, always without the morals!” DON’T play into their expectations. DO throw their own tactics back at them – offer to take little evangelical girl to your Unitarian church, for example. If they say no, act all taken aback, like you don’t understand why there’s a double standard.
I do completely agree with this. I just don’t think giving her a book is such a terrible thing. She’s already read books her parents didn’t really want her to read. Hand her the book, if the parents don’t like it act taken aback at the double standard. It’s not like they’ve asked you not to give her books. And I think the OP has a good point saying she needs adults she knows she can talk to about the stuff she is reading.
It sounds like Dangerosa was half-joking when talking about “corrupting” the child, and sneakily doing it at a sleepover. In my experience it’s more of a natural process with the curiosity of children. You notice they are looking for knowledge and you help them out, guide them, let them know they can trust you if they have questions. It doesn’t sound to me like Dangerosa is really conniving behind the parents’ backs to turn their daughter to the dark side, which is how some posters are reacting. She’s disseminating knowledge, if they don’t like it they can always discuss it.
And Maastricht, I wouldn’t worry too much, it sounds like the parents are probably well aware of the discussions the two children have already, and are ok with that (right?).