Literally a fatal mistake.
I think so, but who knows. I’m not arguing that parents have no right to parent. I’m saying that while parents surely appreciate their preferences being respected, those preferences don’t have some kind of force of law or morality behind them and it’s not intrinsically wrong to ignore those preferences in some cases. That’s not “usurping” anybody’s authority.
So, you’d be okay with chaining a kid in the cellar to keep him from being exposed to the sins of the world?
I’m not talking about indoctrination of someone elses child. That would be wrong - though the religious appear to be okay with it, if it is their indoctrination. I’m talking about exposure to other points of view, to other ideas. That’s why I let my kids go to religious activities.
How can any child grow up to be a functioning member of society with such a narrow education. Waiting until they graduate from Bible college is too late.
Sure, they get it. They get it from other kids, that’s normal. They are peers. You and your children’s friends are not peers. It is not natural for you to scheme and plan to make sure any kid in the neighborhood is provided with your preferred suggestions on reading material. You do that with your own child. If you feel someone has crossed a line by taking your child to a church service (which you were not aware of? how does that happen?) then you tell them to back off and keep the religious proselytizing to themselves. You can say it as plain or fancy as you want. It does not give you the freedom to slip their child your own type of proselytizing. And to do it under the guise of your daughter having a party just makes it so much more inappropriate. Let them have fun together and keep your self occupied with your own business.
How about this, interloper? It is not an appropriate role to take with someone else’s young child.
Not that I’ve ever seen. They often send a reading list home at the beginning of the year, along with class rules and regulations. In my district there is a parents committee to review books. I was on it, and we did not get the books in advance. It was also not heavily advertised. But we’re about as far from the Bible Belt as you can get.
ETA: Sorry for the double post.
Do you propose checking with the parents before turning on the TV when the kid visits? Before watching a PG movie? Do you propose removing offensive magazines (like National Geographic?)
You are really moving the goal post here. This is not about what may be, coincidentally, something a kid may see. This is explicitly providing a child with what you feel their parent is likely to object to. Thats a world different.
We don’t even have that. And I’m in Minnesota. I’ve never been told what my kids are going to read, or sing in choir (my daughter is currently have a separation of church and state argument with her choir teacher). We did get a chance to elect out of sex ed.
On the lighter (and unintentional) side of corrupting your daughter’s little friends, I have a story for Dangerosa about my Boss’s Folly.
Boss has a daughter who celebrated her fourteenth birthday recently. Daughter had suggested that tickets to see the Tran-Siberian Orchestra would be appreciated. Boss thought this was a good idea, and would be more fun for the daughter if her best friend got to go too. So she bought three tickets, and contacted the little friend’s parents.
Little Friend is Asian-American. Her parents are academics, and her parents are over-protective–right out of the whole Tiger Mom thing.
Told where the concert was to take place, they were puzzled–“Don’t they play football there?”
“No, no, that’s the basketball arena”
So, anyway, after some more discussion, and promises to protect the little friend, (and probably some assurances that this would be “educational” to a pair of budding violinists), they agree.
The night of the concert comes, the three (Boss, Daughter, and Little Friend) go, and before they even find their seats, Boss is having a bad feeling about this.
Boss had not intended to take her fourteen-year-old, and her overprotected little friend to their first Rock Concert. Which made me laugh, hearing about it. I’m not especially surprised that the Tran-Siberian Orchestra concert resembled a Rock Concert.
The girls had a marvelous time. Boss less so–she was too busy being mortified for the people who were her age and behaving like they were at a Rock Concert. And too busy fretting about what Little Friend’s parents would have to say later.
The concert ended, and Daughter wanted a t-shirt. Boss asked Little Friend if she’d like one, too, and she politely said no. Boss bought her one anyway, and told her to tell her parents it came with the tickets.
Which made her feel even worse, because now she’s coaching a fourteen-year-old to LIE to her parents.
Eureka, I’ve been there…with my own kids…“oh dear, I don’t remember this movie being this raunchy.”
I wish I remembered the title of the book, but as a teenager raised in a devoutly Catholic household what turned me towards atheism was not any sort of pop-culture novel or anything like that. It was just a book that was about the world’s major religions (Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism) and then some of the better known smaller religions (Judaism, Shintoism, etc.) Just learning about the religions of the world in the “neutral voice” was enough to make me dismiss Christianity as being of any particular importance.
I think Hogg should be next on the reading list!
Of course. It probably has nothing to do with the fact that your daughter is a good person and a good friend to her daughter. It’s all about her SOUL bwahahahaha!
We get points, see, for every convert we ensnare. The younger they are, the more points they’re worth. (I personally think those who baptize their babies are trying to cheat, though.) I myself have been saving up my points for the bean bag chair ever since I was baptized.
Seriously … I have a daughter about your daughter’s age. If, while hanging out with their friends’ parents, the worst thing our daughters EVER encounter is someone who wants to see their soul saved – we’re damn lucky.
Actually, I hate to burst your bubble, but I *was *an evangelical fundamentalist christian child, and I really did earnestly believe that I was put into my neighborhood in order to save my unsaved friends’ souls.
My parents and church took special care to make sure that I understood from a very early age how important I was to the Kingdom of Heaven. I took special care to befriend and become close to any kids that I wasn’t able to determine went to church, and I tried my hardest to become close to them and to really like them, and get them to like me and my family, so that I could make sure that they went to heaven. I did this because I knew (based on church teachings and what my parents told me) that when I died, Jesus would first show me the faces of all the people I encountered who went to Hell because I didn’t do my job properly.
All of the kids in my church (and several sister churches) felt the same way. We cried in each others arms when kids moved away before they were saved, or when we were rejected by any of them, and we tried our hardest to be truly good friends to them, in order that they would be able to see the Spirit inside us and be saved.
So, yes, I can find it quite easy to believe that Dangerosa’s family friend (the adult at least) is actively trying to use that friendship to save Dangerosa’s daughter, and potentially to save Dangerosa herself.
ETA - that doesn’t mean that the children aren’t good friends, just that AS a good friend who happens to be Christian, the girl is acutely aware that Dangerosa-girl is NOT going to heaven if she died, and is doing her darndest to correct that situation in order to continue being good friends. Just like if you had a good friend who was walking down a railroad track and you saw a train coming - you try to save the people that you like/love.
But see, this isn’t how you presented it in your OP. From the title of your thread you’re comparing what you’re doing to their attempt at converting your daughter to their religion. Now you’re acting like it’s just a matter of you being around while they have their deep philosophical discussions and suggesting a book you might just happen to have in your library. Why are you comparing it to what they’re doing? Why does their religion have anything to do with you offering a book from your collection? It shouldn’t matter what god they believe in that you think she might enjoy a particular book, you just need to ask her mother first, because she is a twelve year old child.
And I understand twelve year old children can be mature for their ages in all sorts of ways. Right now I am dealing with the aftermath of two eleven year olds and a 12 year old boy sexually assaulting my seven year old daughter. I know they aren’t really babies at that age, and it’s not because mom let them read To Kill a Mockingbird. But that doesn’t matter. It’s not your child and it’s not their child you think is being “converted” through their sneaky religious activities that you seem to approve of. Why not give the other mom the same respect?
(snipped)
I think there is a false comparison here.
Dangerosa is Mom A = She is open about comparative religions with her daughter, who has studied or at least been exposed to many different world religions. Mom A approaches the world with a scientific and factual mindset.
Friend is Mom B = She has chosen to raise her daughter in a particular faith, and therefore has most likely (we don’t know this for sure) shielded her daughter from learning specifics of other faiths and religions, (we do know this for sure) tried to shield her from conflicting opinions and knowledge. Mom B approaches the world with a faith-based and specifically religious mindset.
Now we have to look at the *daughters * and the relationship between the daughters and moms - from the mothers’ sets of eyes:
Mom A doesn’t really give a shit about whatever her daughter’s friends are presenting to her, because she has grounded her daughter in logic and theory, has already presented most of that information to her previously, and presumably loves her and doesn’t have any preconceptions about “right” beliefs and behavior which would negatively impact their relationship should her daughter choose another faith path. Mom A also has worked to build trust and has confidence that if daughter A needs information or counsel, she will talk to Mom A or to another trusted adult, most of whom Mom A trusts to try and impart information which is in the daughter’s (not necessarily Mom A’s) best interests.
Mom B is very invested in the beliefs of her daughter, because if daughter chooses otherwise, then that choice becomes both a religious and a social conflict for Mom B. Mom B also may be worried that “dangerous” or “forbidden” information or knowledge will draw her child from a much desired “straight and narrow path” of true faith. Mom B may also worry that her daughter would seek out other adults for information or counsel, and that these adults may give information that they believe is in daughter B’s best interest, but that may not correlate with Mom B’s beliefs (and therefore Mom B’s interests). This causes Mom B to be much more invested in **protecting **her child from outside influence than Mom A.
So it really isn’t fair to say that it’s a similar situation. Personally, I say that a child of 12 needs to be learning to navigate the outside world on their own. Parents may feel differently, especially those who are very invested in having their offspring choose faiths or life plans which are acceptable to the parents and their community, but it isn’t the responsibility of any other adult to connive with those parents to restrict the growing knowledge base of the child.
To people who compare Dangerosa offering books to someone offering a 12 year old a book about the joys of suicide bombing, I’d say - bring it.
Come back in seventeen years when I have one and ask me again. I don’t think I’ll be changing my mind.
If after* twelve years of parenting* I don’t have a child who is intelligent and self-confident enough to recognize dangerous or specious ideas when they see them, NOR do I trust them to make those decisions on their own without me hovering over them explaining the “real” meaning, I have failed horribly in my job as a parent, and I hope that I get killed in the resulting blast.
If you are so worried about what your child may encounter in the real world, either you don’t trust your child, you don’t trust your parenting, or you don’t trust that your institution (whatever it is) will stand up to scrutiny. None of those options look really positive to me.
Now I don’t know the OP, nor the children involved, or their relationship to one another. So judging the situation is fairly difficult, since every kid(and set of parents) is different. but hey, would the OP post at all if she didn’t want an opinion? So from what I’ve heard the OP state, this is not the kind of thing I would be comfortable doing. It would make me feel dishonest and like I had abused the trust of a friend.
I wouldn’t provide any books to a child whose parents I believe would find them objectionable. This is because when I am put in charge of other people’s children(not often, mind you, but often enough), I feel it is my responsibility to be as respectful of the parents as I can. This means that in all but the most extreme cases(i.e. when I know the child is being abused or mistreated to the point of breaking the law), I defer to the wishes of the parents.
If the parents don’t want foul language spoken around their children, I curb my language. If the parents would prefer I not expose their children to any books/movies relating to certain topics, or at a certain level of ‘adultness’, I respect that. I also never provide alchohol to the underage(although, to be fair, that’s as much a fear of ME getting in trouble as anything else:)).
I do this because I take the trust of the parents seriously(I mean, to the point where I get VERY stressed out about it). I do this because even if I disagree with a parent’s wishes(and I do disagree with MANY), I nevertheless want to pay that trust back with behavior that reflects a respect for that trust. These parents have entrusted me with what is most precious to them. I would think a lot less of myself if I didn’t give that action the respect and deference it deserves. And until the said children become adults(I usually consider 17 as the ‘close enough’ age), this is the behavior I adopt. And it’s steered me right so far.
I don’t necessarily “approve.” And I find the conversion attempt disrespectful. I also find it amusing and educational. (I find all conversion attempts to be disrespectful, in my world, theological discussions are fascinating, telling someone else what to believe is one of the few sins that exist).
And I am disturbed that when this was about my daughter going to her church and hanging with her church friends all this was great, but the moment we introduce my daughter’s church friends into the mix, it gets odd for them. That was honestly a sign of intolerance I wasn’t expecting. I really doubt the books were any sort of big deal - the girl reads everything she can get her hands on. I suspect Mom doesn’t understand the content of half the young adult lit the girl brings home (very nice woman, but sheltered and naive), but that barn door got left open and I don’t think its my job to shut it.
Because I posted in MSPIMS…not to get an opinion. I’m going to keep doing what I am…which, by the way, includes buying and stocking a large box of condoms with a sign for all my children’s friends that says “I hope you don’t have sex until you are adults, but if you have sex, take and use these.” And if parents want to know about these sort of thing, they can ask and I will tell them and they can decide if they want to have their kids over. But I’m not going to force my son to turn off his video games because my daughter’s friends are over and I suspect that they are too violent for their parents. Its his house, too. If the girls are going to play games involving pretend spellcasting (they were all nuts for Harry Potter), I’m not stopping them because I suspect the Evangelical mother might not approve.
(My son has ended up grounded for using the word “gay” as a insult - and his friends have been sent home for the same behavior. It isn’t that we don’t have rules, its that in my house, the rules I enforce are ours…I don’t make long lists of every other household rules and enforce those as well…and I think parents who assume that their household rules are getting enforced when their kids are at someone elses house are in for a shock when their twelve year old has watched Porky’s at his friends house.
At twelve, they do still need guidance. As to books, it was about that age I read Anna Karenina for the first time. I got through it, but I didn’t have context to understand it. My parents are not big readers (I don’t think this girl’s parents are either), and the adult that should have talked me through it (my English teacher) hadn’t read it either. Not that she should have given me all the context - I don’t think that is a book that you can GET until you are all “grown up” and supposed to be happy, but aren’t (I read it again in my twenties and was much closer to understanding it).
At twelve, their little minds don’t catch consequences. Long term thought is not their strong point. They want so badly to grow up and yet aren’t ready for it. So you need to watch how they are exposed to grown up things, like drugs, sex, alcohol…hopefully, you’ve given them values and context, but its a tricky road for a few years, they aren’t ready to get pushed from the nest completely.
Which is why you do need to vet your kid’s friends parents. If you don’t think that its appropriate for fifteen year old boys to watch a football game with a beer in their hand, the time to find out that Dad C thinks this is the age it happens is hopefully before your son comes home smelling of beer, and once he does, if you don’t think its appropriate, you explain to them why it isn’t appropriate and avoid your kid spending much time in that house (but I’ll take you guys up to the skate park - I’ll even stay in the car so no one knows your Mom is there). But if your daughter has been spending five years going over to someone’s house and coming home with books (the girls have been loaning each other books since they could read chapter books, I just got into the mix here recently when my books became of interest to them - I wasn’t into E.D. Baker) and ideas, then you need to pull back on that relationship or set ground rules with your child (“don’t borrow books from your friends.”)