Moral/Ethical Question re Elementary School Child

In My Humble Opinion
1

Background: I’ve got two children, one almost nine and in third grade, the other is six and in first. We’ve relocated this summer from Ohio to Florida to be closer to family. My daughter was very happy in her life in Ohio, had a lot of friends, got along with most everyone, was part of a circle of friends that had gone to school and played soccer together since kindergarten. Ms. A was not happy in moving away from this environment and was not shy about letting me know it (although not until after we had already moved, which she was initially excited about). We initially lived in a rental apartment in one county and the kids started the school year at one school. Then we bought a home in another county and they had to shift to a second school. So not only did they come into a new school but they started a couple of months into the school year. Among young girls alliances have already been formed and it can apparently be difficult to break into established circles (as opposed to young boys: punch someone in the arm, show the fresh scabs, talk about Yu-Gi-Oh and you’re in).

So the class is apparently reigned over by one girl, we’ll call her L. L is apparently a petty tyrant who establishes who is in and who is out. She browbeats the other girls into submission. This would be bad enough but L is also in the gifted program with my daughter so it’s continuous, all day. Add to that trying to adjust to new, seemingly foreign routines and practices, and my daughter is more than a bit unhappy, bordering on depressed.

I’ve always raised my kids to be nice and inclusive. It doesn’t always come naturally, but generally they do a very good job of this. On the other hand I don’t necessarily want them to be pushovers to pint-sized Napoleons. And I know some nice psy-ops that could essentially crush the alpha-female and reorder the pack.

Question: Is it unethical to teach my daughter quasi-Machivellian tactics to upset the natural order of the young herd? Is it immoral to start a rebellion that crushes the spirit of a young bully*?

Addendum: Any other, less invidious ideas for helping my daughter?

*In psychological, not physical terms.

2

Talk to the teacher of the class. It’s possible that they’re stupid enough to not notice the systematic bullying (that’s what it is), or it’s possible they care little enough to just ignore it. Either way, they’re not doing their job properly.

On the other hand, kids change very quickly at that age, and it’s possible that the problem will disappear by itself before any intervention has an effect. But that’s not a chance you want to take.

3

Sure, you could teach her, but the consequences wouldn’t be pretty.
Simply put: you cannot forsee every situation that comes up in that cutthroat little world.

So when your “training (for lack of a better word)” doesn’t fit a situation and there’s a blow-up or a meltdown, and someone in authority asks, “Where did you learn to do such mean things?” and Miss A responds with, “From my daddy (I’m assuming you’re a guy because I’ve never heard a woman use the word ‘psy-ops’),” then the shit is going to hit the fan a la Texas Cheerleader Moms, Michigan Hockey Dads, or Kansas City Father & Son Ump Beatdown Teams.
Kids are resilient and scrappy, and this will either get old to L or Miss A will stop caring and L will have lost her power.
Let it ride. Childhood is painful sometimes. But it goes away.

4

My second son was bullied for a while at about age 8 or 9. Strangely he is a really big guy and at the time towered over his classmates, however he is very easy going and wouldn’t hurt a fly. I couldn’t work out what was going on and while I pondered things the whole matter came to an end.

His older brother had worked out that the kids who were picking on his brother were doing so at the behest of the leader of their gang. So he told his brother that next time he was picked on he shouldn’t even talk to his tormentors, he should just walk over to their leader and tell him that he would hold him responsible for anything that happened to him and he would pay a heavy price.

I sure I would have offered something more namby-pamby as advice and to be honest I was thrilled that one comeupance ended the whole affair.

5

I’m probably not quite as evil as you assume. :slight_smile:

What I was considering teaching her: slowly, and discretely start pointing out to the other little girls how bitchy L is. Build up resentment in the ranks. Make a point of inviting everyone but L to parties. Turn her into a pariah. Now, that is certainly cruel, IMO, but it’s not exactly the sort of thing that you’re referring to, and it’s certainly not physical or like taking out a hit on the competition. It is very calculating, and I’m ambivalent about teaching her to do things like that, since it’s not her natural disposition.

6

Teach her the tactics but let her know your misgivings about using them. Let her decide if and when to deploy them. She may find comfort simply in knowing there are things she could do if she chose to respond on that level.

7

You’re describing teaching your own kid to be a bully. Not a good way to go.

8

Someone has been watching “Mean Girls” too much!

I don’t think it’s a good idea at all. Encourage her to find her own friends, and when next year comes there’ll be a new person to pick on.

9

I agree. Giving the girl a taste of her own medicine will just teach your daughter that what the girl was doing is fine - as long as your daughter is the one doing it. I think you have a good opportunity to teach your daughter how to turn the other cheek without being a wallflower, and to stand up for herself without cutting other people down to do it.

I second the “talk to the teachers” suggestion. Mainly, because there are two sides to every story, and 9 year old girls can definitely be dramatic. I’m not saying your daughter is wrong, or exaggerating, or being dishonest. I’m just saying her perception of the situation might not fit very well with the reality of it. Secondly, the teacher knows the Bully in question better than either you or your daughter, and may have ideas of how to deal with the issue in a healthy, non-painful way. Try to remember that the other little girl is only 9ish herself. At that age, they’re rarely bitches because they choose to be, but because that’s what they’re taught.

10

Wow, the similarities between your story and our situation are uncanny except our pushy GT kid is a boy (and his mom), and my daughter is not the new kid. Also different is that I have many more problems with the mom of the other kid that I do with the kid himself.

Until recently, there were only two GT kids in my daughter’s grade. Because of the way the school adresses the need of GT students, these two have been and will always be in classes together (at least in elem.). These two kids, although very different, like each other alot.

The other mom (let’s call her Judy) is incredibly competitive and manipulative, and is a ‘super-volunteer’, so she’s always in the classroom ‘fixing’ things. She is teaching her son to do this, too. This concerns me somewhat because my daughter is shy and laid back. I have no doubt that the other mom uses my daughter’s personality qualities to undermine my daughter and advance her son at every opportunity. I’m a school volunteer too, but I don’t do it to micromanage my children’s day.

An example: A third, non-GT, mom told me that Judy told her that my daughter wasn’t accepted to GT on the first test so I had the school test her again and that she passed on the second try. This is not true, but why would she say that and who cares? I didn’t confront Judy about this irritation because the kids are friends and I have to deal with her for a couple more years.

Another example: Judy told my daughter that her son was going to get the most points in a reading contest, so she didn’t need to try all that hard to win. She then got an list of all the qualified books and helped her son take the tests. My daughter dropped out of the contest, saying she just wasn’t interested. I don’t mind that if it is true as I know she can and does read well and often, and I want her achievements to be hers and not mine, but I don’t appreciate this highly competitive mother manipulating my third grader.

Recently a third GT kid moved to our school. My daughter and Judy’s son told me about the new kid and Judy’s son said “But we don’t like him!”. I gave them both a talk about including the new kid and why they should. I hope they took it to heart.

I’m hoping to deal with this artificial GT competition in several ways- one, knowing that the experienced teachers have probably dealt with a similar situation before and can handle it.

Two, by making sure I have direct access to the teachers and program information myself without having to go through the meddlesome Judy. I have learned over the last three years that she only provides information to me that helps her or her son. Frequently, when I’m talking to one of the teachers, I can see Judy in my peripheral vision eavesdropping. Now I prefer to email the teachers.

Third, I am trying to help my daughter develop the skills she needs to navigate these issues herself. I have used “Social Skills Activities for Special Children” by Mannix (which is good for non-special children, too) as a resource and also the various “GT Survival” type books marketed to GT kids, but most importantly, I make time to talk with her about her days, achievements, assignments, friends, and problems.

I must say, though, that the politics and manipulations have caught me by surprise.

11

I forgot to add that my DH thinks that my child will realize soon enough that these are not people that she likes or wants to spend time with and the problem will solve itself at that time.

12

At her age, it’s fine to tell her that she doesn’t have to like everybody; and that, no matter how hard she tries, not eveyone is going to like/be nice to her. There are probably other kids that aren’t in L’s clique. Tell your daughter to see if she can make friends with them. I’d also point out that if that’s the way they treat other kids, she probably doesn’t want to hang out with them anyway.

Good luck. Social ostracism is hard at any age, but I think kids have it worse, because they can’t readily seek out new groups to interact with. Hey - that gives me an idea. Is there an extra-curricular activity that she might enjoy the the mean kid doesn’t do? Something like soccer or gymnastics or horseback riding lessons will give her a different group of kids to connect with.

StG

13

ShibbOleth, You sound like a great parent. A lot of parents have no idea what’s going on with their child at school socially, and a lot of kids would not be willing to confide their fears and failures to a parent. Good for you, for having such a good relationship with your daughter.

It’s probably wrong to teach your kid that it’s okay for her to be mean just because someone else is mean. On the other hand, I really really really want for your daughter to have a party and to invite everyone except that snotty little bitch L. Surely it wouldn’t be so very wrong to let L know what it feels like just once. (I seem to have some unresolved issues from childhood.)

14

I’d say wait it out and be as honest with your child as you can.

When I was in high school I had a teacher and we hated each other. It got worse and worse until my dad sat me down and said: Look, you are way smarter than she is and that’s why she hates you. But she holds the power. So BE smarter than she is and realize that you need her to move on and get out of this school. When you leave, she’ll still be here. If you “kiss her ass” then she will do what you want, which is pass you and YOU will have won."

This was probably the greatest advice my father has ever given me.

You probably don’t have any great platitudes to pass on to your daughter, but trying to help her see the truth of the situation will give her tremendous help at the very least emotionally and also give her tremendous respect for you.

15

Am I understanding you correctly? Your dad told you to kowtow to some evil bully’s wishes just to get her out of your hair? If so, with all due respect (honestly), I firmly disagree. People doing that is exactly what gives these bullies power.

16

:smack: Missed the word teacher. That changes things, slightly. I’d probably have done the same, even though I would have hated every second of it.

17

You’d think I would have hated it, but just knowing that I was going to get what I needed, to feel that I was somehow manipulating her, made me feel so much better about the whole situation it was unbelievable. Of course now I know I didn’t manipulate her into doing her job, but my dad showed me part of the thought process that we all have to use in order to deal with problems like this. Weighing truth and consequences against desire and making a decision about what is the best thing to do.

The power of knowing the truth about this girl (that she is a bully, albeit a girly bully, and specifically HOW and WHY she is a bully) could make the OP’s daughter feel much better about her situation. Which could go a long way in solving the problem.

18

You could also point out to your daughter that people who hurt other people are often hurting themselves. In other words, if L liked herself, she wouldn’t feel the need to hurt other kids. Rather than teaching your daughter how to hurt L, it might work even better to teach your daughter compassion for people who don’t seem to deserve it.

19

Heh. My dad gave me similar advice, but gave it just differently enough that it tanked.

Instead of telling me to manipulate the hell out of the stupid, control-freak teacher that was making my life miserable, he told me, “You’ve got to pick your battles, and this one isn’t worth it.”

To a stubborn, hardheaded 16-year-old, there’s no such thing as a battle that’s not worth it. Telling me that I had to willingly surrender a fight to a small-minded, hateful, stupid opponent just didn’t work.

Had he given the advice your dad gave–if he’d said, “Here’s how you lead her around by the nose, and make her think she’s in control”–I would’ve been a lot likelier to take the advice, and would’ve had a much more pleasant year.

Good to know, for my own future fathering days!

Daniel

20

Are you actually considering telling your child to hang out with people who are mean to her (I know, I know, it’s all L’s fault, but she’s not ostracizing your daughter all by herself), suck up to them, invite them to parties, etc., just to topple L? That sounds like a bad idea on soooo many levels. As others have said, that’s just teaching her that manipulating and bullying people is okay, as long as she’s the one doing it. The more time she spends with the toadies and lets them be mean to her, the more unhappy she’s going to be. Also, teaching her that, in essence, you can bludgeon people into liking you, and that such friendships are worth having, isn’t going to serve her all that well in her later life, especially once her social world expands to include guys. And finally, it stands a huge chance of backfiring and making her situation worse.

Sure, we like to think that she could make these comments about how mean L is, and the other girls would keep it to themselves and quietly mull the situation over. With a clique of girls, especially ones that age, it’s more likely that their coattails won’t touch their asses before they’re over there telling L that your daughter is talking shit about her. Then things will really get ugly.