Can I ask you why you believe I’m “singling out” this girl and what makes you believe that I don’t loan books to my children’s other friends if they show an interest? Or is that another leap in logic?
Can we ask you why you absolutely refuse to first mention this to your daughter’s friend’s parents and instead are adamant about doing this clandestinely?
Frankly, it sounds like shit-stirring is a big part of your motivation here (you mentioned being offended, and that’s when we most likely to allow our emotions to get the best of us) and that is very uncharacteristic of you.
I agree with you.
…I never got that point from anything Dangerosa wrote.
Wait, what is this about? This is new information for me. I thought there were other church friends on the guest list? …Oh, wait, you mean other UU friends. Okay. Now I feel like the OP makes a lot more sense.
I fully support OldnCrinkly’s contention that if friend’s parents are uncomfortable with a party where the majority will be UU, they should not have their kid go. But it seems to me that Dangerosa has been totally aboveboard in pointing this out, otherwise why would the parents be uncomfortable? It is amusing to me, too, that the parents appear not to see any equivalence between why they might be uncomfortable with such a party and why Dangerosa might be uncomfortable with a Christian!social event. Which is all I think Dangerosa was trying to point out (although yeah, I’ll agree your OP was a little unclear, if I’m now only getting the point this late in the thread, and I’ve been defending you 
)
Well, the majority won’t be UUs. Two girls from our church are being added to the half dozen public school kids that are the “usual set” as my daughtr has recently made friends at church. But I don’t feel that anyone has a right to control my daughters guest list except us, nor does she. And they certainly could send regrets. Thought I’d still complain about it…
It kinda sounds like you just don’t think very highly of these parents and how they raise their kid, and the whole point of the OP was to kvetch and eyeroll about them in an environment where they won’t hear you. I mean, they’re letting their kid come to the party, which is supposedly what inspired all this, but if they did the opposite and didn’t let the kid come you’d still complain? So basically they can’t do anything right for you. But you’re so open-minded that you’re willing to tolerate them in your kid’s life.
This is how it all reads to me based on your tone in this thread, which may or may not reflect reality. I suppose though I’m just another reader who doesn’t get whatever the point of this was supposed to be.
Well, I’ll tell ya what, I’m willing to try to show you why I think you are in the wrong here, even if your heart is in the right place. In return, I ask you to engage in a bit of honest self reflection before you completely dismiss what I say.
Let’s begin with your OP, I know you said you were interrupted when you wrote it and distracted, however, I believe it is safe to assume you were not lying. You did not say, as you later did, that you had lent this girl one book. You say you have lent her books (plural) and movies. You say you were discussing if it was appropriate for one of your other friends to lend her another book (since her parents were so conservative). So I ask you, is that this girl showing an interest in a book she sees at your house? No, that is you and another person trying to decide how offensive her parents might find said book. Generally, when we actually have some respect for another person (the parents), we try not to offend them. That would include not collaborating with others to find ways to offend. Do you do that with all your kids friends. Unlikely.
While we’re talking about the parents, maybe you can explain why you have made so many comments in your defense that concern them? We have heard how conservative they are, how they are likely to not let your daughters stay friends, and how they just wouldn’t understand what you are giving their daughter. You have said how sheltered and naive this girls mother is. If, as you claim, your treatment of her is in no way justified by your distaste for their beliefs, why mention it? You have made a point to emphasize how unreasonable they are, but, if her parents beliefs have nothing to do with your actions, why on earth would you bring them into the discussion?
I see no proof for your claim that they are sheltered and naive. Nor do I see any backing for your insistence that this girl is limited by their conservatism. You claim they may not let your daughters be friends. This girl attends public school, you say that you were quite open with her mother about your own faith, and yet, they let her stay at your house? She’s not locked in a towe wearing a burka, they don’t live in a compound. They haven’t cut off contact, nor have you indicated that they have placed any limitations on their interaction, so where do you get the idea that they have some strange intention of stopping the friendship? It would seem, from what you have said, that the other mother has in fact encouraged the friendship. I don’t let my children spend the night with friends whose parents’ actions I objectionable. I expect this mother, like most, is the same. Yet, she lets her daughter spend the night with you. It is no leap in logic to assume she does not object to their interaction.
As to your most recent comment, that they seemed apprehensive about the party guests (which is strange, because again, what on earth does a guest list have to do with your lending club?) you are the one with a leap in logic here, without a doubt. You claim she was apprehensive because the unknown (to her) guests were UU. She regularly, by your own admission, has your daughter to her house, and her daughter to yours. That would strongly indicate that she is not, in fact, opposed to a person of UU beliefs. She may be concerned about the fact that they are not children she already knows, and I can’t blame her. There are some bad kids in the world. She has actually demonstrated that she is willing to trust your judgement, and has faith in you to not expose her daughter to something untoward. And yet, you feel just peachy keen about deliberately giving her daughter things you (for whatever reason) firmly believe she would object to. And you claim to like her, and she, you!!
Congratulations, this woman is open minded enough to encourage her daughters friendship with a girl of another faith. You chose to shit on her trust, because you feel you have a right to override her parental opinion, because she’s so religious and conservative. Someone is rushing to judgement, but I don’t think it is her.
You seem in this thread, to have a chip on your shoulder in regard to Christians, or perhaps it is just conservative people in general. I am surprised, because I have never noticed anything like that before.
Please consider what I have written with an open mind, and try to appreciate that people are entitled to their own beliefs on what is proper for their own children. That includes, me, you and these parents.
I may be 100% wrong, but if I had to guess, if absolutely everything was exactly the same in this situation, except the girl’s family faith was Muslim instead of Christian, Dangerosa would be acting very, VERY differently towards her.
She’s not planning on converting anyone. This is the third or fourth time you’ve criticized Dangerosa for doing something that bears no resemblance to anything she is doing.
Why are you emphasizing words like “plan out” as if they are somehow sinister? What she’s doing is either OK or it isn’t. “Planning” doesn’t make a bit of difference. It comes off as especially silly because she’s choosing books, not plotting a murder. And to answer your question, I don’t remember ever borrowing a book from my friends’ parents. I don’t remember anybody ever offering. If they had, I probably would have thought it was nice because I liked to read. Imagine! My parents also never forbade me from reading anything or criticized the books I got from the library.
Marley, I would disagree about her trying to convert anybody. While she may not be trying to convert this girl to some specific other, she is indeed attempting to convert her away from her parents influence. Not sure how you could disagree with that.
As for the planning out, here’s the thing: She states in her OP how she and another friend were discussing what the friend, not Dangerosa, might offer this girl. That is, frankly, bizarre. It is quite a different story from this whole Oh she happened to see To Kill a Mockingbird at my house! incarnation of the story. I think the fact that your friends parents did not get together with their friends to plan what books to lend you is less because they did not think you would like them, and more because it IS NOT normal behavior from a parent towards their children’s friends. It is being an interloper,if you will, into your child’s friendship.
Obviously. But you would be wrong. And if you’re going to use words to mean something other than what they are commonly understood to mean, you should at least say so because that allows people to understand what you’re talking about. That’s happened a few times here. Dangerosa is not trying to change the girl’s religious faith. That’s what “conversion” usually means in this kind of topic (like in the thread title, where she discusses the other girl’s parents evidently taking her to church services without telling her). What she’s doing is giving her books without asking the parents. Just call it what it is.
The girl apparently already reads stuff her parents don’t want her to read. That’s not Dangerosa’s doing. She is not trying to reduce the parents’ influence over anything except perhaps her reading material.
I think they didn’t do it because they didn’t think to do it. I don’t remember ever talking to my friends’ parents about what I was reading.
No, I think you want to limit the definition of the word. There is no mention of these people taking her daughter to church without her knowledge. What, did they kidnap her?
At least you admit she is trying to influence her choice in reading materials. Most people trust schools and libraries in that respect with their children. I don’t think anyone expects it in other people who have some tangential relationship with their children. Guess why? It is not normal. It just isn’t. People are usually busy enough with their own children not to get involved with other people’s children in a way the parents would not appreciate. If for no other reason than to avoid unnecessary drama. But I guess some may like bringing drama into other families, just for spite.
Now, I don’t want to say your opinion is not valid. Truly, I don’t. But you did say you are not a parent and I think you are looking at this differently because of it. I ride the bus every day, okay? I have a driver’s license as well. I don’t think that means I am qualified to drive the bus through downtown traffic with standing room only. Becoming a parent is a life changing experience, and you may be looking at this with an opinion that is less than fully informed. It is way out of line for a parent to interfere in the family of their children’s friends.
I just got off the phone with the chief of the FD. He says I’m going to have to stop reading this thread because the sheer number of strawmen in such a compact space is creating a substantial fire hazzard.
Yes, there is.
She’s probably taking this better than I would, actually.
You keep saying things like “It’s not normal” like it’s a meaningful argument. It isn’t. Whether or not a behavior is “normal” doesn’t have any relationship to whether or not it’s a good idea or whether it’s the right or wrong thing to do.
I’m sure.
And I haven’t told anybody how to parent. I’ve said I don’t think Dangerosa is doing anything wrong.
Again, offering somebody a book isn’t “interfering in their family.” And we do indeed recognize a lot of times it’s appropriate for an outsider to interfere in a family. Restrictions on literature aren’t one of those times, but let’s not pretend the family is some kind of bubble and any kind of involvement is verboten.
Bolding mine
I hate to say this, because it will probably come off as an insult, and I don’t intend it to - but you’re not really a “bookish” person, are you?
If you were, I think that we would really see a difference in your opinions on what constitutes “normality” in regard to books and recommending them to people. Which, by the way, you seem really really hung up on, as if your own personal preferences and situation are ipso facto “normal” and nothing else can possibly qualify. That’s a total other ball of wax that I’m not even going to try and deal with. However, I do feel sufficiently motivated to address your really weird fixation with how unnatural and abnormal it seems to you that adults consider books and discuss them with friends and consider whether other people (including kids, OMG) may like them or not.
I spend large portions of my free time (not while I’m at work as a librarian, but when I’m at home and out with friends) thinking about, discussing, and contemplating books which I would like to suggest to specific people (AND TO THEIR KIDS WHO ARE ALSO PEOPLE) **based on what I think they would like **or what I think would be an enjoyable mental or intellectual interaction.
I don’t base those suggestions on their **parents’ **likes or dislikes, I base them on what I know of the individual person. They are an individual, and they are allowed to have their own interests and tastes.
Would you be so fired up if Dangerosa indicated her subversive and totally abnormal contemplation of offering the kid the Saddle Club series because she was horse-crazy? What if the kid’s mom was phobic of horses? What then?
It’s just silly. You’re not only blowing this all out of proportion, but you’re making a totally normal part of reading enjoyment into this horrible boogieman’s desire to manipulate and subvert.
You’re not helping your position any with those types of tactics.
ITS NOT ABOUT THE BOOK!!! I really don’t know why people don’t see that. It is about the fact the the girl is 12. Her parents have a right to restrict her access to what they deem to be acceptable and appropriate. Just like they can put a filter on their internet access. It is, I would even say, their obligation. You or I or Dangerosa do not have the right, morally, to interfere with that. She is giving her books that she fully believes the girls parents would object to. She is doing it without their knowledge. That may not be illegal, but it is still wrong.
You know why public school boards are open to public scrutiny? So that parents can object to something if they find it improper or offensive. Do you not believe a parent should have that right?
Going behind someone’s back to influence their children is unjustifiable without proof of some very serious problem. I don’t like their views, falls far short.
And let me mark the irony of members of a board dedicated to fighting ignorance claiming it is “just a book”.
“Bookish”, indeed.
Because I think it actually is about the books. At a bare minimum the fact that we are discussing books and not alcohol or porn or drugs or porn should at least be kept in mind. It does no good to throw all of those things together under some kind of hysterical heading.
I don’t think it’s a moral issue.
I think everybody has acknowledged that parents can and do have that right and I know I have, so I don’t know why you’re asking. But I’ve also said that this is really not an issue of parental authority or rights. It’s about parental wishes. Parents don’t have some kind of right to have the rest of the world respect their wishes. They might appreciate it, but that’s not how it works.
I’ve got to second Lasciel about the aspect of “normality”. I really don’t recognise OldnCrinkly’s understanding of “normal” interactions adults should have with children not their own.
As I understand it, any interaction that is not entirely superficial is abnormal, way out of line, disrespectful of the parents etc. This is simply not my experience interacting with children, nor with allowing other adults to interact with children in my care, nor my experience with anybody I know very well who has children.
As I said, I was given books by other adults when I was a child. I also discussed my views with my neighbour, when I was young. She was that kind of person, the adult who takes children seriously, talks to you like a grown up. That was wonderful.
Over the past several years I have been living in two streets at once: one in the Netherlands one in the UK. In both places I live in a street with lots of young families and I know most of the kids around. In the UK they knock on my door and ask for us to bring out the musical instruments, or the bicycles. We play, we chat. With the girls next door I’ve talked about Islam, feminism, being a woman, sisterhood etc. We sit outside and exchange ideas, but apparently this is abnormal. I haven’t given them any books because they aren’t old enough for my books.
With the kids I worked with (I’m only including those for whom I functioned as a parent) multiple views were discussed by many different adults. We had evangelicals coming in all the time trying to convert the kids (and us too, ha!), they talked to all kinds of people all the time. If they could read and if the people in the vicinity had any books I’m sure they would lend them books. They’ll let them come in and watch their tv, so why not.
In Brazil (where I used to live), but also in the original cultures of many of the people in my two streets, raising children involves all of the community. Your description of “normal” really does not match my experience at all, and the thought totally creeps me out.
I would also ask that you stop harping on people who are not parents themselves. You never know what life experiences people have. In my experience, the parenting role changed many things and left others unchanged. My parents didn’t change to become people who hold your opinion on this matter when I was born. Neither did any of my friends who have kids. I didn’t change my opinion. Marley might not either. I really don’t see the relevance of having children in this case; it’s much more a case of principle. Many things in your brain go quite crazy, but a sudden fear of adults lending your child books is not anything I’ve heard of before.
Marley I am glad you can admit that a parent has a right to object to information presented to their children. Perhaps you can also see that by refusing (not coincidentally not mentioning) to involve the parents, Dangerosa denies their right to object. She is the adult, lets not try to say the child is responsible.
Parents are entitled to raise their children as they see fit (yes, of course, within reason). It is within their discretion to determine how their children are educated, and what reasonable restrictions they choose to apply. What gives anyone the right to interfere and disrupt that?
Gracer, I made one mention of being a parent in this thread, and specified that it does not invalidate one’s opinion, so, don’t try to change that.
You may have all of these relationships with people’s children, I don’t find it particularly odd. If, however, you insist on doing it without their parents knowledge, fully believing they would object, that would be not good. That is the difference.
Its the sneaky. You can not justify the sneakiness. Do you really want to?
For one thing, I have argued up thread that sometimes it is in fact one’s duty towards a child to allow them access to information to which their parents might object, as their rights as a human are actually more important than any rights the parent might have to convey their view of the world.
For another, the sneakiness was bit of a joke, it’s been made abundantly clear. She’s giving the kid a book. The whole story of “plotting” was an embellishment. If there were an actual plot, involving secret messages and an underground railway of elicit reading material it would all be much more exciting. Actually, she said:
Two people talking about what book to lend a child of conservative parents in order to expand her mind. The parents may or may not agree, who knows. My flatmates and I sometimes hold sneaky conventions where we collect pots and pans for musical instruments, because the kids in our neighbourhood aren’t really stimulated much. Maybe Islam doesn’t allow rock music and rap, I dunno. I don’t really care. I know I’m not doing anything wrong.
Sorry about the parent-thing, it was actually another poster who mentioned it before. You did say, however, that you think Marley thinks differently because of it and I would rather we just say that we have absolutely no idea what may or may not, in future, occur in someone else’s brain.