Like I said: these are preferences, not rights. Understandable preferences and ones I’d respect in most circumstances, but still - preferences. As a parent you are entitled to make some decisions for your children, but you don’t have some kind of rights to have them know only what you want them to know when you want them to know it, and you don’t have some kind of right to make the world do things your way (or any means to enforce it).
YES! Or, at least, I do. I plan out what I can offer EVERY twelve-year-old child that I know at all well, including both those whose parents totally agree with me in terms of overall life philosophy and those who don’t. (The books tend to be much the same in both cases, except I have to be a bit more careful to check with the parents of the latter.) I am SO eagerly awaiting my nephews getting to that age so I can start giving them those books! I’ve already started planning out years’ worth of Christmas and birthday presents for them. And my brother-in-law and his wife are looking forward to it as well – they’ve already stated that they’re going to enjoy reading those books as well.
Now that I have a two-year-old, I also plan out what I can offer other one- and two-year-olds of my acquaintance. I’m so totally psyched that I can show them Museum ABC and the Boynton books and … well, I have a whole list planned for those too, but you probably don’t want to hear it.
I agree with those who say that part of the issue may be that you’re not used to that sort of philosophy? The fact that you think it’s weird… well, I think that not lending kids books is weird. If I thought the parents would be really upset about it, I’d bring it up. If I didn’t think so, I’d just give the book to the kid, already.
ETA: It sounds from the OP like Dangerosa gave the kid a book her parents didn’t approve of (Dragon Tattoo), but I’m almost certain she came back and said no, that wasn’t her, so I still don’t know what you’re going on about in terms of Dangerosa doing something she knows the parents won’t approve of.
I should also say, in OldnCrinkly’s defense, I think Dangerosa’s line may be a bit farther out than mine is. I tend to bend over backward, when I’m lending a book to the kid’s parents, to say, “Look, there’s a character having nonmarital sex in Hero and the Crown. It’s very subtle and I didn’t even pick up on it when I was a kid, but I’ll understand if you’d rather not have your kid read it,” that sort of thing. Though sometimes I forget.
However, I actually don’t see anything wrong with lending a kid a book as long as it’s not a secret from the parents. I mean, if the parent’s not going to read every book the kid does, then I say there’s no need to bend over backward to give every single warning that could possibly be given. And even from the OP I don’t see that Dangerosa’s advocating keeping secrets, it sounds more to me like she’s saying, “Eh, go ahead and lend the book, you don’t necessarily need to fill the parents’ ears with detailed warnings.” Though again I may be projecting. Now, I can see someone having a problem with that, although I am not that someone.
Actually keeping a secret from the parents… there are times and places for that, I think, actually; if the kid is desperate to break free, then yeah, I’d say then I might smuggle books in secret. But we’re not really talking about a case like that.
What was the book the friend wanted to loan, was that the To Kill a Mockingbird that’s been mentioned?
Also, I really want to know what the aftermath of this party is 
I am not sure how many times I have already said this, but clearly, not enough. This is not about me, my children, or what books I think are acceptable. At all. I have not accepted or rejected any book on moral or ethical grounds.
I object to a person unilaterally determining that their judgement should prevail over the parents of a 12 year old as to what is or is not proper for that child. It was not a joke, and she did state that she would not be telling the parents, since she thought they wouldn’t understand. I say no one has that right, and following through with this action deprives the parents of their right to object.
It is not about a book, or any particular book. It is about people interfering in a parents right to supervise their own child’s development. This about taking positive actions with someone else’s child, without their knowledge, that you honestly believe they would object to. This is absolutely not a child being criminally deprived. How can any person justify that?
Gracer, nice to see your prejudice against Muslims. The OP justified her actions because the parents were Christians. Lets see of we can go for the trifecta!!
Here is the question I pose: Do you believe it is moral (not legal), to invite a Jewish child to your home and feed him say, a Cuban sandwich? Is it okay to do it without telling his parents? Cause I’ll tell ya what, I love some pig. I think it would expand the childs horizons, and of course he has a human right to eat! Would his parents have a right to be outraged? What say you, o defenders of interference?
PS, Raspberry Hunter, yea, thats a little weird, but in a good way. I really hope you would not give out what you know the parents would object to. That’s not nice, even if its legal.
What?
Right, so why did you feel it necessary to mention that some children you are friendly with have parents who practice Islam? You feel entitled to disregard their standards because you do not agree with them, that’s what you said. What gives you that right? Not legally, but morally?
If your daughter walks down the street in shorts, do you think conservative Muslims have a right, morally, to insult her?
People are allowed to disagree on what acceptable standards are, it is not right, though, to impose your standards on other’s children.
That makes it prejudiced?! Would you rather I just said “religion”? Does that make any difference at all? The reason I said what I said is that I do not know if playing Blowin in the wind on the guitar is OK in Islam. It would probably be OK for Catholic children, most Catholics I know are fairly relaxed. I don’t know if it would be OK for orthodox Jews. The kids next door are Muslim and I don’t know if Bob Dylan is OK to listen to. That is the situation. That is why I mentioned it. Honestly, you’re accusing me of being prejudiced because I said the word Islam. This is ridiculous.
No, I didn’t. I said nothing of the sort.
This entirely unrelated. I am not insulting anyone.
You really seem to have trouble separating the actual words people write from what you want to think they mean. The parents know the kids hang out on our doorstep (well, they’re outside on the street all day). If they want to tell me what stuff is ok and what isn’t then they can do that. I have no idea if making music with them is ok.
My standards are not being imposed on the children. We make music together. I know that in Islam it is not OK to make drawings of things they think god created. If we were drawing, I would probably ask the kids “Is it OK in your religion to do a drawing like this?” If they say yes then it’s ok. If they say “I’m an atheist, please don’t tell mum” that’s ok too. (I would advise them to talk about it, and offer to help them talk to their parents, but it’s up to them.)
The point of what I said was: it is entirely normal for people to discuss with others their next interaction with a child (you call this “plotting”), especially if that interaction might expand their mind or their experiences. I do that all the time. For normal, every day interaction with children that takes place on my doorstep I do not ask parents their views on every single thing. I do not know if rock music and improvised rap battles (no swearing, of course) are OK with them. I am not imposing anything on anybody.
I really think you’re reading a whole different post somewhere. Accusing me of being prejudiced is ridiculous and would be insulting if it wasn’t the result of your inadequate reading comprehension.
You’ve said it plenty of times. I just don’t agree with you, and I’m not sure gracer does either. Either way, you don’t need to continue repeating it.
Again - not a right.
Strict Muslims are opposed to music - which I can’t understand for the life of me, the same way I can’t understand some Christians’ opposition to secular music. Of course not all Muslims stick to that teaching the same way not all Jews avoid pork.
Doing something out in the open is not the same as doing that same thing behind someone’s back. Try reading that again. If you can not understand the difference, I would suggest that you read it again. It is plain. That is the problem here as I have stated over and again.
It doesn’t really matter what religion a person practices, does that fact that someone’s standards are informed by their religious beliefs somehow automatically render them less valid?
The problem is not doing something, unwittingly, that may offend someone. The problem is going behind a parent’s back, intentionally, to do something with their children that you believe will offend them. Try reading that again, and if you disagree with that statement, please explain.
As far as not insulting anybody, you are kidding , right? To assert that your judgement on how people should raise their children is automatically superior to the parents is quite insulting. Especially when you dismiss their concern out of hand on the basis of their religious belief.
This was regarding a public school board being open to criticism. How or why would an individual not be held to the same standard, when they take it upon themselves to educate other’s children? Why does a parent lose that right?
You’re not making any sense here. No rights are being lost. A school board can be criticized, a parent can be criticized, and someone who gives a book to a child can be criticized. None of those criticisms are inherently valid or invalid, but the arguments can be made.
Sure, they can be criticized, however, the parent is effectively denied that right when it takes place intentionally without their knowledge.
If the parents had specifically told me not to offer pork, I would not.
If the parents had not specifically told me, but I knew they kept strict dietary laws and would be outraged if their kid ate pork, I would not.
If the parents had not specifically told me, but I knew they were Jewish, I might offer. I might say to the kid, “Hey, I’m not sure how strict your family is, do you eat pork? If so, these sandwiches are awfully good.” And yeah, I’d do it without telling his parents, on the assumption that the kid is old enough at 12 to tell me, “No, we don’t eat pork, thanks.” (If so, I’d probably mention it to the parents, and tell them I wouldn’t offer again.)
I would certainly offer a Jewish kid non-kosher food, though I’d try to point out it was non-kosher. Especially if the kid was hungry, I’d probably offer it even if I knew his parents kept strict kosher. I don’t have kosher food in my house.
Conversely, Mormons don’t drink coffee. This is something that most people think is a little weird. I would think it perfectly reasonable for my child’s friend’s parents to offer coffee to my 12-year-old child (say, if they were drinking it themselves), and I would think it unreasonable for me to be outraged about it unless I had specifically told them not to do so. (In fact, people have and still do offer me coffee, even after they find out I am Mormon, because they don’t get it and think it’s weird.) However, I would also expect my child to say, “No, thank you, I don’t drink that,” and I would expect those parents to then back off.
If my kid is bound and determined to drink coffee, and will respond to an offer with “Oh please, yes, I’ve always wanted to do that!” …I don’t think it’s the other parents’ fault, and I wouldn’t be outraged at them (I might be a little miffed at my kid). Again, unless I’ve specifically told them not to do that, then I’d be upset.
ETA: In fact, I’m pretty sure my best friend’s parents offered me coffee when I was 12 or 13. After I refused, they didn’t bring it up again.
I guess this is a pointless attempt at a conversation, because I think my responses here have been pretty reasonable and for the most part you’re not answering them in favor of repeating yourself. Parents have the right to make a decision, but they do not have a right to make the entire world abide by their decisions. So if you don’t want your children to read a particular book and I give them that book, I have not denied you any rights. I also have not done anything inherently immoral. I may have undermind your authority in a way you don’t like, but what you like does not make the world go 'roud and parental authority is not absolute. A parent’s preference does not become a right just because you say over and over and over that they have the right to do something and nobody has the right to do something different. Things also don’t become “normal” just because you say over and over that anything else isn’t normal.
This is the only consideration I believe is required. I don’t understand why anyone thinks this is unreasonable. Thank you for answering.
Right back atcha! At least we agree on something.
You are ignoring the fact that children especially a 12 year old does have rights and free will as well. Per your example, it would be immoral to force or trick the child whose family follows kosher to eat a Cuban sandwich. However, if a platter of Cuban sandwiches is placed on the lunch buffet as one of several all equally attractive options and the child knowing full well the food is not kosher chooses to eat the Cuban sandwich, the host has certainly committed no moral or ethical or etiquette crime. Do the parents have a right to be outraged? Possibly, but at their child if he or she is of age when following religious laws is expected. Likewise a 12 year old is probably aware of what his or her parents would object to them reading.
RE: kid’s eating pork
If a child has different religious beliefs than their parents then it is my duty to go with the
Declaration of Human Rights and support the child’s right to freedom of religion without being persecuted for eating pork (or whatever) by their parents. I do not have a duty to the child’s parents to support their oppression of the child IF the child has different religious beliefs. Let me be clear: I would not encourage anything either way. The child has rights. It’s not like the parents have the right to tell me not to offer their kid sausage. The fact that you think it’s disrespectful of the parents is not more important than the human rights of the child.
If the child holds the same religious beliefs as their parents I’m sure they will be able to tell me that, at twelve.
RE: gracer insulting people and being prejudiced
I’m sure it’s in vain, but I still await an apology for your ridiculous accusation, OldnCrinkly. I have also not dismissed people’s parenting choices or stated that my opinion is superior. All I am saying is that I will uphold any child’s rights wrt freedom of religion. The rights of the child outweigh the rights of parents to raise them with the religion they choose. I am not saying I am in anyway automatically superior because someone else is religious. In fact, here you go: I am not automatically superior to religious parents.
RE: music and Islam
Thanks for the clarification, Marley! I don’t think they’re very strict and I’m sure the kids would be able to let me know if music wasn’t ok with them. We talk about their faith all the time and they know what they’re about.
I think it’s unfortunate that this is being overlooked in this discussion.
Yes, that’s a … strange angle. If the parents objected to books like Harry Potter for reasons that were not religious but were still unrelated to the merits of the books, that’d be just as stupid.
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. With books, I do feel it’s a little more of a grey area than dietary restrictions (which I think are pretty clear-cut once you know what they are), because a parent’s opinion might change
a) if they actually read the book in question
b) if they actually thought about what they read.
For example, I feel like there are a whole bunch of books I read when I was a kid that if my parents had read, maaaaybe they wouldn’t be quite so accepting of my reading them. But I don’t know, because they never read them and never will. Conversely, there are books, like To Kill a Mockingbird, which I am strongly convinced my friend would have said was fine to loan his kid if he’d read it, but he didn’t.
And then there are the books like Twilight, where all these parents are all “What great books with a role model where the girl doesn’t have sex before marriage!” and I’m all “Have you seriously at all thought about the part where the love interest is a hundred-year-old stalker? Does that not disturb you even a little?” (This is not to say that I would forbid a parent loaning my kid Twilight, but I would certainly understand it if someone forbade me from loaning it to her kid… and yet I’ve yet to come across a parent of my acquaintance who has problems with her kid reading Twilight.)
So I guess what I’m saying, in my typically long-winded way, is that for me, I see asking a kid if she wants to borrow a book more as like my coffee example than like the pork-outraged example. (I mean, my best friend’s parents knew I was Mormon and that Mormons didn’t drink coffee. They just thought they’d offer. No one got outraged.) But I see now that you think of it as the pork-outraged example, and I do think it is possible to read the OP that way (though I do not necessarily agree).