On the Topic of Transgenders

[Arcite]

@Moriarty

Like the OP, nobody is suggesting that you need to befriend, socialize with, date, or otherwise become affiliated with a transgendered (or, for that matter, gay, Black, Latino, or whatever else offends you) person. Just leave them alone, and (provided they aren’t harming anybody else) respect their desire to live as a fully fledged member of society.

What if a transgendered person applies for a job to work at my front desk? Is anyone then suggesting that I need to become affiliated with them?

@oft_wears_hats

Do you feel the same way about people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? Should they be made to dress as men since they are genetically male?

No, because they’re phenotypically female.

@tomndebb

This is nonsense. Unless you are going around making people drop their pants or skirts, you are not going to know who is transgender, to begin with.

Yes, I am. The incidence of “passing” is greatly exaggerated by people who think they’re being clever when they tell us you can’t tell the difference between a man and a woman (unless they’re taking hormones and have had extensive surgery.) The vast majority of trans people look like what they are: a man trying to look like a woman, or vice versa.

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Same basic question as, well, every time. Do either of you two recognize that gender identity is a thing that exists, and is distinct from biological sex?

No.

And yes, my choice of wording is correct. You would be pretending it doesn’t exist, because the scientific basis for gender identity is decades old and encompasses thousands of papers. Here’s just a small smattering:

http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107.short
https://pure.knaw.nl/portal/files/515234/15106_285_swaab.pdf
Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism - ScienceDirect
Sexual differentiation of the brain and behavior - ScienceDirect
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197905313002201

I don’t care if the brains of transsexuals show some differences from those of normal people. They should still be considered men who think they’re women or women who think they’re men, not men who have the accident of being born into a female body that should be altered with hormones and surgery or vice versa.

The American College of Pediatricians is a hate group and basically the pediatric equivalent of Answers in Genesis when it comes to actual facts.

What an insane society we’re living in, that an organization could be called a “hate group” for opposing adoption by homosexuals. What could be more hateful than allowing homosexual adoption? Who would want a kid to be raised by a pair of gay guys or lesbians? What a miserable existence.

@Bryan_Ekers

Heck, if that’s your issue, transgender persons are way down on the list of people you should be concerned about. In comparison, Evangelical Christians have massively more influence over your life by virtue of their influence over the various western governments.

This seems like a non-sequitur to me. But, I want to live in a pre-1960’s America–basically everything you cultural leftists mock as “Leave it to Beaver,” “Ozzie and Harriet,” “Norman Rockwell”–so I can’t help giving Evangelicals a pass, even though in key ways they often don’t get it (like thinking homosexuality can be cured with therapy.)

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

That’s a pretty interesting question. Derek and Arcite, there’s a tiny chance–let’s call it one in a million–that you lack a Y chromosome. Let’s say you get a genetic test and discover that you’re that one in a million. At that point, would you continue “pretending” to be a man, or would you adopt a feminine name, start wearing dresses, shave your legs, and use the lady’s room? Arcite, you disapprove of homosexuality; would you start dating men?

I had to look up what you’re referring to. I presume it’s XX Male Syndrome. In that case, no, because I’d be phenotypically male, because I’d have the SRY gene.

[Arcite]

@Euphonious_Polemic

This is EXACTLY spot on. And it’s why the proponents of these “transgender bathroom laws” are so completely full of shit. They do not give a rats ass about “protecting” anyone. At all. The ONLY thing they want is to persecute a tiny minority who they do not understand and do not want to understand. Even when given the facts about what is going on, they stick their fingers in their ears.

As someone pointed out in another thread, the concern of a lot of mainstream social conservative types is not that transsexuals themselves, will be sexual predators, but that male pervs will enter women’s bathrooms to creep on women and when caught, will use “I’m trans” as a defense. I know you don’t see this because you think they’re just haters who want to hurt people for no reason, but I know a lot of mainstream social conservatives and evangelicals personally, and I can tell you they really do believe this.

That said, these bathroom laws are a rear-guard action, a last-ditch effort, a grasping-at-straws. The people who pass them know it’s not feasible to, say, make it illegal for doctors to prescribe sex hormones or perform sex change surgery, so they do what they can.

BTW: I predict that in 20 years or so, if current trends continue, it WILL be considered bigoted/racist/whatever to have preferences in dating. The prime moral principle of our society is now total equality of and nondiscrimination among all persons and groups. Having preferences in dating violates this. If you object to this because telling people they can’t have personal preferences just “seems wrong,” you are making what has been termed an unprincipled exception: a value or assertion that actually contradicts your principles, but is not identified as such, that you use to escape the uncomfortable consequences of those principles. It goes against your gut to violate certain basic aspects of human nature, but holding to the idea that discrimination and inequality are the greatest evils in the world will eventually require such violations. The only way to avoid this is to go outside of liberalism altogether, as I do, and believe that there’s nothing wrong with discrimination and inequality.

[iiandyiiii]

@Arcite

What an insane society we’re living in, that an organization could be called a “hate group” for opposing adoption by homosexuals. What could be more hateful than allowing homosexual adoption? Who would want a kid to be raised by a pair of gay guys or lesbians? What a miserable existence.

What could be more hateful? Not letting homosexual couples adopt, since the research shows that they’re just as good at parenting as heterosexual couples. Do you really think that a kid is better in a group home than with honest, hard-working, and loving parents who happen to be gay?

Or do you not think there exist any gay people who could be honest, hard-working, and loving people or parents?

This seems like a non-sequitur to me. But, I want to live in a pre-1960’s America–basically everything you cultural leftists mock as “Leave it to Beaver,” “Ozzie and Harriet,” “Norman Rockwell”–so I can’t help giving Evangelicals a pass, even though in key ways they often don’t get it (like thinking homosexuality can be cured with therapy.)

Why am I not surprised that you’d prefer to live in a country in which white supremacism is enshrined and supported by law?

[iiandyiiii]

@Arcite

As someone pointed out in another thread, the concern of a lot of mainstream social conservative types is not that transsexuals themselves, will be sexual predators, but that male pervs will enter women’s bathrooms to creep on women and when caught, will use “I’m trans” as a defense. I know you don’t see this because you think they’re just haters who want to hurt people for no reason, but I know a lot of mainstream social conservatives and evangelicals personally, and I can tell you they really do believe this.

It sounds like this would make it much, much easier for the pervs to do – all a male perv would have to do if these anti-trans laws go into effect, is go into the ladies’ room, say “I was born a woman”, and perv away.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Arcite

I had to look up what you’re referring to. I presume it’s XX Male Syndrome. In that case, no, because I’d be phenotypically male, because I’d have the SRY gene.

Note that moving goalpost. It used to be that the XY combination was the magical identifier of masculinity–but now you’re saying that if you lacked that, you’d accept something else.

Let’s say there was some new genetic disorder, you were the first discovered member of it. Turns out you lack the SRY gene as well. At that point, can I call you Suzy, and will you put on a skirt? Or is your gender identity more important to you than your genetic makeup in terms of your sartorial decisions?

[Emiliana]

@Guinastasia

I thought when that happened it was your kidneys they stole, not um, other things.

Oh shut up yourself. You’ve been posting here even longer than I have – you can’t honestly think I go around using terms like that on a regular basis. No shit it’s repulsive.

No, you’re actually being quite obnoxious in this thread. You’re taunting DM by suggesting he’s really attracted to transwomen as if that were really fucked up.

Like, you’re so repulsive you must really be gay. You’re such an asshole you must be attracted to transwomen.

You’re really, really bad at snark.:smack:

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Emiliana

No, you’re actually being quite obnoxious in this thread. You’re taunting DM by suggesting he’s really attracted to transwomen as if that were really fucked up.

Like, you’re so repulsive you must really be gay. You’re such an asshole you must be attracted to transwomen.

You’re really, really bad at snark.:smack:

Indeed. I’ve said my piece, Guin. If you think you need to continue in this vein, it just makes you out to be an asshole too. I’m not planning to take any more time to try to persuade you otherwise; you’ll either check your shit or you won’t.

[Rushgeekgirl]

@DerekMichaels00

I’m just a dissenter of what much of the internet has become on this issue. I am a male, born a male, and will continue living and die a male, as the Lord intended.

Like I said; if people who mention the difference in transgenders’ brains vs. non-trans brains can show that the incidence of this brain difference is on the order of how many phenotypical men have Y-chromosomes, meaning its a constant (except for extreme <.1% outliers), I’ll change my stance. Until then, it just seems to be almost like a last frontier for those who can’t stand that the fight for LGB rights has largely been won and thus is mostly over.

Oh for fuck sake, your “lord” indeed. Ever wonder why your lord made men with penises and then instructed his followers to cut bits off of them in order to prove their loyalty? Your lord was okay with strangers raping women but was totally down for executing unmarried women with busted hymens. He was fine with killing all the boy babies in the town where one of his enemies lived. He’s coming back too, and your lord is going to take every man, woman, and child who hasn’t bowed to him. Who the fuck cares what your lord intended? I’m literally one haircut away from being tossed out of the women’s restroom because people like you have to make a big deal about men and women who choose to behave in a nontraditional way. They are likened to child molesters and oh my GOD won’t someone pleeaaase think of our poor little virgin girls who might see a penis in the ladies’ room and get confused!

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Derek, remember how I mentioned as a fellow short dude how much damage you were doing to us short dudes?

I want to talk about my experience as a fem dude now.

It doesn’t happen any more: I have short hair and a full beard and a bit of a paunch. But from about the age of 13 to the age of 30 or so, I was mistaken extremely often for a woman. I had long hair; I didn’t grow facial hair worth a damn; I had slender, delicate features. It was a very, very common experience for me to be washing my hands in the bathroom and for a dude to come in, see me, jerk as if slapped, step back out, look at the sign on the door, and step back in giving me the hairy eyeball.

I developed a specific slow, wry nod that I gave such guys, while staring them in the eye, a way to communicate, “Yup, you’re in the right place, I see you and am not freaking out, I’m a guy, go about your business.” I got a lot of weird looks, but that was always the end of it.

Now? Now I’m not sure what would happen. Now I’m hearing stories about people policing bathrooms. Now people are whipping people into a frenzy about pervert crossdressers in bathrooms. I’m lucky that the fem version of me lived twenty years ago, because he was safer then that he would have been now.

Whatever your fucked up attitudes are toward women and toward transgender people and toward your own sexuality, set that aside for a moment: can you believe for an instant that these laws are going to improve public safety? that these laws do any good?

[DerekMichaels00]

@Arcite

What an insane society we’re living in, that an organization could be called a “hate group” for opposing adoption by homosexuals. What could be more hateful than allowing homosexual adoption? Who would want a kid to be raised by a pair of gay guys or lesbians? What a miserable existence.

While I agree with you on a lot of the transgender stuff, I don’t think there’s anything hateful about gay adoption, since God made gay men get stiff to men instead of women, given how a penis is not voluntarily movable like a finger. How else do you measure sexual arousal, since the penis either gets hard or it doesn’t. Same goes for lesbians, but with wet vajes instead of penises.

Two parents, either M/F, F/F or M/M are better than single parents or no parents. However, I would still argue that, all else equal, opposite sex parents are best, if only because the kid avoids social harrassment and the statistical likelihood of being straight is very high so the view they see growing up is most likely to represent what they ultimately emulate. Tho on adoption, agencies should look at families overall picture, and yes, two straight parents is a plus, but doesn’t make it categorically better than gay ones.

[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
Note that moving goalpost. It used to be that the XY combination was the magical identifier of masculinity–but now you’re saying that if you lacked that, you’d accept something else.

[/QUOTE]

I think Arcite, probably like me, makes exceptions for rare, documented genetic mutations. And “mutation” is indeed the word, tho I know the PC police will be upset with that.

[QUOTE=Arcite]
As someone pointed out in another thread, the concern of a lot of mainstream social conservative types is not that transsexuals themselves, will be sexual predators, but that male pervs will enter women’s bathrooms to creep on women and when caught, will use “I’m trans” as a defense. I know you don’t see this because you think they’re just haters who want to hurt people for no reason, but I know a lot of mainstream social conservatives and evangelicals personally, and I can tell you they really do believe this.
[/QUOTE]
I agree, tho its not just social conservatives and evangies, or the public opinion would be on the side of trans-bathrooms. I suggested that state IDs and forms should indicate TM/TF and that “transitioning” should be an official process, if its going to be accepted, so the transgenders can both have their way and what you describe be more easily avoided (ie no “I’m a trans” defense, and cops could look at the ID and see that Jenner did belong in the girls’ bathroom) But progressives called that still “bigoted/transphobic,” which I presume is because it violates “gender fluidity,” whatever the hell that is.

[QUOTE=Arcite]
BTW: I predict that in 20 years or so, if current trends continue, it WILL be considered bigoted/racist/whatever to have preferences in dating. The prime moral principle of our society is now total equality of and nondiscrimination among all persons and groups. Having preferences in dating violates this. If you object to this because telling people they can’t have personal preferences just “seems wrong,” you are making what has been termed an unprincipled exception: a value or assertion that actually contradicts your principles, but is not identified as such, that you use to escape the uncomfortable consequences of those principles. It goes against your gut to violate certain basic aspects of human nature, but holding to the idea that discrimination and inequality are the greatest evils in the world will eventually require such violations. The only way to avoid this is to go outside of liberalism altogether, as I do, and believe that there’s nothing wrong with discrimination and inequality.
[/QUOTE]
That indeed is a huge fear of mine. I hope to God that doesn’t happen. People need to watch this, at 00:51 South Park - TV Series | South Park Studios US Hopefully, somewhere in our political system will come those who are moderate, which sadly, seems to be fleeting, at best.

[Acsenray]

This thread is now officially the “God made gay men get stiff” thread.

[Jragon]

@Acsenray

This thread is now officially the “God made gay men get stiff” thread.

Psalms 3:5

I lie down and sleep; I wake again, because the LORD sustains me.

[iiandyiiii]

@DerekMichaels00

While I agree with you on a lot of the transgender stuff, I don’t think there’s anything hateful about gay adoption, since God made gay men get stiff to men instead of women, given how a penis is not voluntarily movable like a finger. How else do you measure sexual arousal, since the penis either gets hard or it doesn’t. Same goes for lesbians, but with wet vajes instead of penises.

This “stiff” and “wet” thing that you constantly mention is really weird. Maybe it’s a part of sexual arousal, but sexual arousal is only a part of sexual attraction, and sexual attraction is only a part of overall romantic attraction and love. There are people sexually attracted to both sexes, but only romantically attracted to one, or vice versa.

Two parents, either M/F, F/F or M/M are better than single parents or no parents. However, I would still argue that, all else equal, opposite sex parents are best, if only because the kid avoids social harrassment and the statistical likelihood of being straight is very high so the view they see growing up is most likely to represent what they ultimately emulate. Tho on adoption, agencies should look at families overall picture, and yes, two straight parents is a plus, but doesn’t make it categorically better than gay ones.

This sounds like the kind of argument that could be used to discriminate against interracial couples (social harassment) – I don’t think prospective parents should be discriminated against because they might be a bit out of the ordinary.

I think Arcite, probably like me, makes exceptions for rare, documented genetic mutations. And “mutation” is indeed the word, tho I know the PC police will be upset with that.

“Mutation” might be the word for some, but not all, of the things that can lead to an intersex condition. Believe it or not, there are non-genetic things that can happen during development in the womb that can affect how sexual characteristics develop.

I agree, tho its not just social conservatives and evangies, or the public opinion would be on the side of trans-bathrooms. I suggested that state IDs and forms should indicate TM/TF and that “transitioning” should be an official process, if its going to be accepted, so the transgenders can both have their way and what you describe be more easily avoided (ie no “I’m a trans” defense, and cops could look at the ID and see that Jenner did belong in the girls’ bathroom) But progressives called that still “bigoted/transphobic,” which I presume is because it violates “gender fluidity,” whatever the hell that is.

It’s unacceptable because it singles out trans people, publicly identifies them if they don’t want to be publicly identified as trans, publicly identifies a process (transitioning) that should be as public or private as the individual wishes, and similar. Trans people should not be forced to publicly out themselves, especially with so many people out there (like you) who want to publicly say terrible things about them without being criticized, or actually physically harm them.

That indeed is a huge fear of mine. I hope to God that doesn’t happen. People need to watch this, at 00:51 South Park - TV Series | South Park Studios US Hopefully, somewhere in our political system will come those who are moderate, which sadly, seems to be fleeting, at best.

It’s a ridiculous fear. Loving vs Virginia was ~50 years ago, and yet most white men still choose to date white women, and vice versa, and they are not stigmatized or criticized as racist for doing so. Despite all our progress, a person is still much more likely for having a partner of a different race than one of the same race.

Stop being afraid of stupid bullshit crap like this. There are real things to fear, but it’s not that anyone will make you date anyone you don’t want to. You’re shit on as a transphobic asshole because you call total strangers who have done you no harm whatsoever “repulsive” and “disgusting” and want to do so without anyone criticizing you for it, not because you don’t want to bang trans people. That’s first-order assholery, no matter who the people are you’re calling “repulsive”.

So get over this bullshit and stop being such a prick. Why on earth would you want to be such an asshole to people who have never hurt you at all?

[Emiliana]

Thank the lord for wet vages! I do think old Derek is having us on. The troll meter just exploded.

ETA: Milk breasts should have been a clue.

[boytyperanma]

@Arcite

What an insane society we’re living in, that an organization could be called a “hate group” for opposing adoption by homosexuals. What could be more hateful than allowing homosexual adoption? Who would want a kid to be raised by a pair of gay guys or lesbians? What a miserable existence.

Cite?

There are numerous organizations that oppose adoption by homosexuals that the SPLC has not designated hate groups.

The American College of Pediatricians is tracked as a hate group because the openly promote false information, like claiming homosexuals are child molesters.

[Locrian]

And once again, this is entirely areligious problem.

@From article

Absurd as the war over bathroom access might sound to outsiders, it’s hard to overstate how serious it is to many religious conservatives. The specter of penises in the ladies’ room has haunted the religious right since its inception, usually invoked as a sign of imminent dystopia.

Sounds pretty much like what Derek is saying. And this is another perfect opportunity to dissect religious arrogance. Transgenders suck because… god. Okay, let’s criticize your 2,000 year old lack of reasoning due to a dumb book and preachers who yell the loudest and hold the most (non-venemous) snakes at once.

I say the same thing about politicians. Tell me your ideas and outlook on a subject WITHOUT using poor fiction as a “reason” and we can talk. So as long as your reasoning is “God says so”, I’ll just say Randall Flagg (or some other fictional character) disagrees, and his/her word is just as valid.

[Broomstick]

@Arcite

But, I want to live in a pre-1960’s America–basically everything you cultural leftists mock as “Leave it to Beaver,” “Ozzie and Harriet,” “Norman Rockwell”–so I can’t help giving Evangelicals a pass, even though in key ways they often don’t get it (like thinking homosexuality can be cured with therapy.)

I don’t.

Why the HELL would I want to live in a society where it is legal and accepted to pay me less for doing exactly the same work as someone else, where discrimination is not only permitted but for some forms enshrined in law, and essentially if you weren’t a white, heterosexual, able-bodied, Christian male you were a second class human being at best?

Do you understand why that might be unappealing to the half of the human race who isn’t male, and the men who aren’t hetersexual, white, or Christian?

Yeah, I get it - you want to live in a world where your sort, despite being a minority, get to lord it over everyone else. The rest of us say “fuck that shit” and want to live in the present.

[Guinastasia]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being attracted to trans people – quite the contrary. But the OP obviously does. He reminds me of closet cases who are almost always the quickest to scream, “I’M NOT GAY!!! EEEWWW!” (Which IS incredibly offensive) Or little kids who say, “Eeeewww, I HATE Billy!!!” when asked which kid she has a crush on.
I should probably tone it down, I guess I just pushed too hard, I suppose. But it honestly would not surprise me if there is some fear that he’ll find himself attracted to or HAS been attracted to in the past, a transwoman. And that’s why he’s screaming about it so freaking loud. Because he’s a fucking hypocrite, and that pisses me off.

@Arcite

What if a transgendered person applies for a job to work at my front desk? Is anyone then suggesting that I need to become affiliated with them?

In many states, if you deny them a job soly because they’re transgendered, you could be sued for discrimination.

Yes, I am. The incidence of “passing” is greatly exaggerated by people who think they’re being clever when they tell us you can’t tell the difference between a man and a woman (unless they’re taking hormones and have had extensive surgery.) The vast majority of trans people look like what they are: a man trying to look like a woman, or vice versa.

Says you. People have posted pictures of trans men and women who have passed very successfully.

What an insane society we’re living in, that an organization could be called a “hate group” for opposing adoption by homosexuals. What could be more hateful than allowing homosexual adoption? Who would want a kid to be raised by a pair of gay guys or lesbians? What a miserable existence.

Prove it, jackass.

This seems like a non-sequitur to me. But, I want to live in a pre-1960’s America–basically everything you cultural leftists mock as “Leave it to Beaver,” “Ozzie and Harriet,” “Norman Rockwell”–so I can’t help giving Evangelicals a pass, even though in key ways they often don’t get it (like thinking homosexuality can be cured with therapy.)

Good for you. And I’d like to live in world where unicorns exist and fart ice cream. It ain’t gonna happen.

I had to look up what you’re referring to. I presume it’s XX Male Syndrome. In that case, no, because I’d be phenotypically male, because I’d have the SRY gene.

You’d still be XX, which according to you, means you’d be a female. Sorry, can’t have it both ways.

@Arcite

As someone pointed out in another thread, the concern of a lot of mainstream social conservative types is not that transsexuals themselves, will be sexual predators, but that male pervs will enter women’s bathrooms to creep on women and when caught, will use “I’m trans” as a defense. I know you don’t see this because you think they’re just haters who want to hurt people for no reason, but I know a lot of mainstream social conservatives and evangelicals personally, and I can tell you they really do believe this.

Once again, prove it. You know what’s going to happen with these bathroom laws? It’ll be even easier for men to get into the women’s room, because they can also claim, “hey, I’m trans, I was born a woman!” Would you really feel “comfortable” if you saw this guy walk into the lady’s room? You’d REALLY be able to tell?

I read an article the other day, about a woman who caught another WOMAN spying on her, and she was told, “I wanted to make sure you’re REALLY a woman”. See what’s happening now? Besides, do you know how hard it would be to spy on women in the lady’s room without getting caught? You’d have to peep through the crack of the door, stand on the toilet and peek down, or lay down on the floor and peek under. None of which are practical.* ALL of us do our business behind closed doors. I don’t know what goes on in the men’s room, and quite frankly, after hearing all of this bullshit, I don’t want to know.
Quite frankly, I’m sick of the fact that it’s mostly MEN getting upset about the WOMEN’S room being violated. We’re not worried about it, for the most part. Because we realize how absurd the notion is. It has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative, it has to do with fucking common sense. It’s already illegal to creep on people in public restrooms. And I can guarantee you’ve been in bathrooms with trans people, without knowing it.

And finally, and I have YET to get answer about this: why have you never been worried about little BOYS being preyed on in the men’s room?

*Think I’m wrong? Prove it – try this in the men’s room the next time you see someone go into the stall.

[joyfool]

For all the morons who’d like to live in the past, is there any way we could actually send them back there?

[boytyperanma]

@faithfool

For all the morons who’d like to live in the past, is there any way we could actually send them back there?

They all want to live in a version of the past that didn’t actually exist. Maybe we can drug them and hope they find the fantasy land they are looking for.