Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic?

[gonzomax]

@Dr.Drake

No, we are putting them in jail for the actions they perform while in the throes of their disease, the same as we do for violent schizophrenics or a modern Typhoid Mary. In all cases, the judicial system has the option of restricting the prisoner to a treatment facility rather than mainstreaming them in jail.

Merely being an alcoholic isn’t an arrestable offence.

Sounds like a good justification for alcoholic sanitariums. That is a great way to treat people in the “judicial system”.

[Czarcasm]

@OneMissedPost

@Acsenray

2. That an alcoholic is powerless in the sense that once he takes a drink, he is unable to drink in moderation?

This.

Then by that definition, if an alcoholic is able to drink in moderation, he is no longer an alcoholic. Either that, or they have a definition of “cure” that that isn’t in the dictionary. It’s as if you have a broken leg that heals completely, and a friend insists that it is really still broken because there is a chance that you could break it again sometime between now and the day you die.

[Dr.Drake]

@gonzomax

Sounds like a good justification for alcoholic sanitariums. That is a great way to treat people in the “judicial system”.

??

If someone commits a crime, you either attempt to punish them or you don’t. You either attempt to rehabilitate them or you don’t. I would think that if illness were a factor in the crime, a sensible person would tailor both punishment and rehabilitation accordingly. So yeah, alcoholic sanitariums sound like a good idea for alcoholics who have demonstrated habitual criminal behavior while under the influence of alcohol. That would exclude any crime that wouldn’t merit a jail sentence on its own, first offenses, and any crime not committed while drunk, alcoholic defandant or no, and of course last I checked, alcoholism wasn’t a crime in and of itself.

[Czarcasm]

@raindog

This is one of the most ignorant posts I’ve read in recent memory.

There are millions of people who believe that AA saved their lives.

Millions.

That would be great if it were a church, which relies of belief instead of hard evidence.

[Sitnam]

@Czarcasm

That would be great if it were a church, which relies of belief instead of hard evidence.

And number of believers is taken as evidence.

[RedFury]

Stinkin’ Thinkin’

…was started with the intention of highlighting the quackery and abuse that is the foundation of the addictions treatment industry – with a view toward building community among people who are questioning the only game in town. We will post news stories; expose how the inmates treat each other in their asylum, and provide resources and information. If you land here and wonder what we’re trying to accomplish, here’s your answer:

To expose the addiction treatment industry as a racket — a revolving door that makes billions of dollars off the backs of addicts. Its survival depends upon the failure of its methods to promote actual recovery.
**The vast majority of addiction treatment facilities in this country are 12-step-based, despite the evidence that this approach is stunningly ineffective for almost everyone. So, we want to inform people that there are effective evidence-based options.
We want to see the courts, doctors, treatment centers, schools, the military — anyone who’s involved in public policy — offer and promote evidence-based treatments.
We want judges to stop sentencing violent offenders, sexual and financial predators, and the mentally ill to Alcoholics Anonymous.
** We want Alcoholics Anonymous, as an organization, to stop placing anonymity over accountability — to stop hiding behind their “sacred tradition” that handily also prevents them from having to take responsibility for what actually happens in AA meetings. AA actively recruits and evangelizes at the courts, which has resulted in its meetings being populated by criminals and predators. Abuses are rampant in AA meetings and sober living establishments — neither of which are regulated in any way.
<snip>
Since Alcoholics Anonymous is a “spiritual” or “religious” program — and has been declared religious in nature by the courts — we also want to see the courts and employers recognize the unconstitutionality of mandated Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.

<snip>
We don’t object to AA’s existence. We object to the pervasiveness of an unproven program, based on a spiritual awakening, which courts criminals and predators as well as children, and hides behind a tradition of “anonymity” in order to remain unaccountable for the abuses that happen in “the rooms.”

While Stinkin’ Thinkin’ is not specifically an addictions recovery support board (we don’t endorse any single treatment method), we support you wholeheartedly in your quest to find your way. Most of the members of our community are ex-AA members, some of whom have spent decades of their lives in AA. People gather here to talk about their experiences and to build community. They’re also actively challenging the status quo. The blog is scrappy and confrontational, and sometimes the discussion gets heated — even ugly.

– highlights mine.

[RedFury]

@Sitnam

And number of believers is taken as evidence.

What works? A summary of alcohol treatment research

[Czarcasm]

“Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic”.
Is this claim falsifiable?

[tomndebb]

@RedFury

From the link you apparently didn’t bother to read prior to scolding me:

I read it. So what?

@RedFury

Reason it was posted twice is because it was ignored the first time.

Then, perhaps you would take the time to actually invest some energy in participating rather than just throwing out links. If you cannot be bothered to actually participate, why should anyone bother to read your failures to participate?

@RedFury

Of course, you’re more than welcome to rebut it yourself.

Why? I am not at all sure that I disagree with the general thrust of the article. I doubt that people compelled to attend AA actually gain anything from it.

OTOH, this is a forum for actual debates, not a place to lay snide comments down just because you can find a link to some other person’s beliefs.

I note that later you finally did choose to participate (somewhat), although I also note that you still can’t be bothered to actually post your own thoughts or logic.
Posting a link is not a problem. Repeatedly posting a link without providing any context or ideas of your own is trollish.

[Guinastasia]

@Mr.Excellent

Question: What about people whose condition has advanced to the point where alcohol withdrawl is life-threatening? Yes, safe treatments are available - but I have a hard time looking at a man chugging cheap vodka from a paper back to ward off grand mal seizures as someone who’s simply making bad choices.

I saw that happen. My great-aunt came to my grandparents’ fortieth wedding anniversary party and decided to skip drinking that weekend because she knew it would piss off my grandmother. She ended up having a seizure and wound up in the hospital. I was eight years old at the time and I remember seeing her lying on the ground. This was the event that lead her to get sober and now she’s a counselor for AA.
I also lost my favorite aunt to alcoholism. She was finally able to get sober, but she got an infection and because her body was still recovering from the years of drinking, she couldn’t fight it off. But when she first decided to stop, she went to the hospital to go into detox. My grandmother never got over her death.

Most alcoholics are in denial. (“I don’t have a problem. I can quit any time I want. I’m not drunk.”) I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say, “Oh, I can’t help it, I’m an alcoholic.” Or mostly they’ll just say, “I don’t really give a shit.”
AA is not the only 12 step program out there. There are ones with a more non-religious base. And even then the “higher power” doesn’t always refer to God or whatever. It could mean the group itself.

There’s a LONG history of alcoholism/addiction on my dad’s side of the family. I’m seeing it now with other members of the family. I’m not saying that everyone who drinks is an alcoholic – I like to drink. (Although I can’t drink that much because of my meds). But alcoholism is a disease. Or rather, addiction is.

[An_Gadai]

Thread reminds me of the song Fuel.

@Ani DiFranco

They say that alcoholics are always alcoholics
Even when they’re dry as my lips for years
Even when they’re stranded on a small desert island
With no place in two thousand miles to buy beer

[Czarcasm]

@Guinastasia

I saw that happen. My great-aunt came to my grandparents’ fortieth wedding anniversary party and decided to skip drinking that weekend because she knew it would piss off my grandmother. She ended up having a seizure and wound up in the hospital. I was eight years old at the time and I remember seeing her lying on the ground. This was the event that lead her to get sober and now she’s a counselor for AA.
I also lost my favorite aunt to alcoholism. She was finally able to get sober, but she got an infection and because her body was still recovering from the years of drinking, she couldn’t fight it off. But when she first decided to stop, she went to the hospital to go into detox. My grandmother never got over her death.

Most alcoholics are in denial. (“I don’t have a problem. I can quit any time I want. I’m not drunk.”) I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone say, “Oh, I can’t help it, I’m an alcoholic.” Or mostly they’ll just say, “I don’t really give a shit.”
AA is not the only 12 step program out there. There are ones with a more non-religious base. And even then the “higher power” doesn’t always refer to God or whatever. It could mean the group itself.

There’s a LONG history of alcoholism/addiction on my dad’s side of the family. I’m seeing it now with other members of the family. I’m not saying that everyone who drinks is an alcoholic – I like to drink. (Although I can’t drink that much because of my meds). But alcoholism is a disease. Or rather, addiction is.

That’s all very well and good, but can you answer my question, which is directly tied to the OP: Is “Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic” falsifiable?

[Sitnam]

@An_Gadai

Thread reminds me of the song Fuel.

I think it’s the WANTING a beer that’s the disease.

But no one has answered me yet, is being addicted to cigarettes a disease?

[Dr.Drake]

@Czarcasm

Is “Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic” falsifiable?

Yes, but only once we agree on the clinical definition of “alcoholic.” For AA, the claim is the definition, so we need a neutral standard to appeal to, and we don’t have one.

[Czarcasm]

@Dr.Drake

Yes, but only once we agree on the clinical definition of “alcoholic.” For AA, the claim is the definition, so we need a neutral standard to appeal to, and we don’t have one.

You forget the more important second part-the clinical definition of “cure”. That has to be a set of conditions that will cause the person who says that alcoholics are incurable to say, “You have shown me that you are cured-therefore my statement is wrong.” If someone says that human levitation is wrong, then levitating in front of them will prove their belief to be wrong. What will it take to falsify the OP’s question?

[Dr.Drake]

@Czarcasm

You forget the more important second part-the clinical definition of “cure”. That has to be a set of conditions that will cause the person who says that alcoholics are incurable to say, “You have shown me that you are cured-therefore my statement is wrong.” If someone says that human levitation is wrong, then levitating in front of them will prove their belief to be wrong. What will it take to falsify the OP’s question?

No I don’t—if you have clearly defined what an alcoholic is, then you also know when someone is not an alcoholic. If someone who once was an alcoholic and then is not, the “once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic” statement is false.

How he moves from one state to another is the cure, but first you have to establish whether there is a cure at all.

[levdrakon]

Sounds to me if you’re cured - no matter what a sloppy pathetic out of control drunk you were - then you were never an alcoholic.

If you’re a true alcoholic, you can never be cured.

The only way to be sure would be to follow someone for the rest of their life. Kinda silly.

[Czarcasm]

@levdrakon

Sounds to me if you’re cured - no matter what a sloppy pathetic out of control drunk you were - then you were never an alcoholic.

If you’re a true alcoholic, you can never be cured.

The only way to be sure would be to follow someone for the rest of their life. Kinda silly.

The ultimate “No True Scotsman”?

[Czarcasm]

@Dr.Drake

No I don’t—if you have clearly defined what an alcoholic is, then you also know when someone is not an alcoholic. If someone who once was an alcoholic and then is not, the “once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic” statement is false.

How he moves from one state to another is the cure, but first you have to establish whether there is a cure at all.

I apologize-you are correct.

[Alessan]

“Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic” is like “a gun is always loaded”. It may not be true, but it’s a good safety tip.