I just had to address this.
Bryan Ekers, here’s what I don’t understand. You’ve said all along that you support the individual’s right to attempt to make personal changes. What I haven’t seen you address is the fact that this guy’s decision to change can’t be entirely his own. He’s not attempting to change to improve himself in an absolute sense. As much as he can insist that he’s not self-loathing, he’s not a follower, he wants to change so he can conform to someone else’s interpretation of what God wants him to be. Did he get his ideas about God and homosexuality straight from the mouth of Jesus, or what? I mean, it’s admirable and all that to say “I for one salute this guy’s efforts to change,” but you can’t ignore the fact that this isn’t just a case of somebody who wants to get rid of that gut. This is a case of a man denying himself to himself based on the prevailing religious ideology of the day.
Look at that blog. Look at how hard, and how seriously, he’s taking criticism. Look at how much of his “thoughts” are spurred on by the thoughts of another. How much of what he feels, I wonder, is based on other people’s words? How much of his identity has changed from within, and how much has been altered, directly or indirectly, from without?
Man, is that ever poorly written. As much as he can insist that he’s not self-loathing, and he’s not a follower, it seems to me that he wants to change so he can conform to someone else’s interpretation of what God wants him to be.
Which is the exact reason why many of us are willing to believe that homosexuality can be an innate trait: there are so many people with so many stories and I for one am not willing to call them all liars. There is no firm genetic science on this yet, and so in the interim ISTM that the thing to do is take people at their word and when they say they’ve “always been gay.”
But why does such tolerance only go one way? I personally know people who feel they have “overcome” a sexual orientation, and who by all indications are now healthy and happy. There are thousands of people who have done the same, and then you have people like Camille Paglia who identify as gay but themselves feel it was either a choice they made or something to do with their childhood. Do we have to ignore their testimony and say they are all mentally ill or “in denial”?
The fact is that every one of the arguments you’re mustering to discredit their stories are exactly the same ones that were once used to tell homosexuals that they didn’t know their own minds, and exactly the same sort of “well, the psychologists say you’re just in denial” authoritarianism that you’d be decrying if it was turned around.
Why is it too much to ask that we allow people to take identify themselves however they wish and respect them no matter what they decide?
I don’t think anyone is calling anyone a liar, at least not intentionally, but until we know the exact cause(s) of homosexuality (and perhaps not even then), it simply isn’t correct to say that it definitely cannot be changed (or that it definitely can); certainly personal testimonies to the effect that change seems* utterly impossible should be respected and honoured, but that doesn’t promote them to the status of incontrovertible fact.
*The word seems implies a sort of limpness of will; I don’t by any means intend to imply that any individual has a less than carved-in-stone perception of their own sexuality.
I’m sort of reluctant to use this analogy, but I think it works a little better for me than those that mention paedophiles and car thieves.
I don’t like football(soccer); when I say I don’t like it, I really mean it - I actually can’t stand it - I find it really very hard to understand what all the fuss is about for what seems like every single one of my peers. I am rendered societally dysfunctional by this and am somewhat scorned by many people when they try to initiate a casual conversation about this or that team or footballer, only to be met with a blank look and the muttered words “Well, I’m not really into football”.
Whatever it is that makes people like football (and it seems like bloody everyone at the moment); whatever that factor may be, I just don’t have it.
There was a time when I tried to go along with the crowd, but I just knew it wasn’t for me; something inside of me just shied away from it all. I’ve watched one entire football match in my life, to appease my friends - I came close to understanding what it was that they all get so worked up about, but then it all dissolved into a jumble of meaningless stimuli and my eyes just glazed over.
Now let me make it absolutely clear at this point that I am not in any way suggesting that a person’s sexuality is in any way as arbitrary or trivial as a mere interest in football, or that a mere disinterest in football is in any way as troublesome or persecuted a thing as being in a misunderstood group as regards sexuality. That isn’t my purpose.
I hate football, I can’t make myself like it - I really don’t think I could make myself like it and I have given up trying; I don’t want to like it and I don’t see any reason why I should or why anyone should think I should.
BUT If things had been different somewhere along the way (I’m not exactly sure where, maybe something as trivial as environment, maybe not enough of this hormone in the womb, maybe too much of that one, maybe even some tiny little overlooked genetic factor; maybe if one or some of those things had been different, I would be on my way to Portugal chanting Ing-Ur-Lund! But I’m not.
What I can’t say for sure is what might or might not have been otherwise, also whether something, outside of my own force of will, could effect such a radical change in me that I ended up really liking football, to the core of my being (I’ll leave the arguments about whether I’d still be me to the philosophers) - I can’t say this is impossible; my experience might make me think it would never happen, but that is ‘only’ a very strongly-held conviction, it isn’t an empirical fact.
I’ve no doubt that this, like every other analogy I’ve ever tried, can be picked apart and deliberately stretched to make me look ridiculous, but my point remains; I may consider myself a born heterosexual, but I don’t really know for sure how ‘ingrained’ that is or how immutable, I only know how ingrained and immutable it feels. Without invoking metaphysics like ‘I was always meant to be heterosexual’, the best we can do is talk about our perceptions. IMO.
My sincere apologies if this coimes across as offensive to anyone; I don’t intend it that way.
And I’ve got the other side of the story.
I work for an anonymous listening line that serves my city’s gay community. I would never go into an individual story, because even with the barrier of anonymity (first theirs, and then mine on a message board) I would not want to mention any detail that could possibly identify someone out there in internetland, except to say that the ex-gay-who-isn’t is a story I’ve heard far too many times, and it sometimes ends with the guy having to tell his wife and kids he’s HIV+
In my own life, too. First other gay guy I ever knew pushed himself into the closet just as I was finally admitting it wasn’t going to change. Spent years there as an “ex-gay,” giving grandiose speeches about how people change. I saw him last year. He and his boyfriend are getting married.
His story has a happy ending. Others don’t. Two acquaintances of mine were a couple of long standing who broke up about five or six years ago. One half of the couple had decided to go straight, to satisfy his deeply religious parents. And as far as they know, he’s changed. Like all these converts, he likes to give speeches about how change is possible. What’s known to only his friends and his wife is that he hasn’t changed. Since his religious beliefs don’t permit artificial insemination, he had to have his ex-boyfriend present at the conception of his child just to get him aroused (I’m amazed it allowed him to have his boyfriend in the room).
Then there was a guy I went on one date with. Turns out he wasn’t interested in a romance, just sex. He married a woman and had kids with her to satisfy his religious parents. Now, of course, he’s prowling around for sex, and he doesn’t seem too safe about it (maybe he doesn’t know much about safe sex – without access to gay organization and the like, he might not be getting the message). Anyway, he said his wife suspects him of having an affair with another woman. As far as he knows, she doesn’t suspect him of being gay at all.
A few private examples. I have at least a dozen more. But let’s move on to public examples. I remember John Paulk many years ago on a talk show, talking about how he changed. For those of you who don’t know, Paulk was once the American ex-gay movement’s spokesman-in-chief. It wasn’t long before he caught in a gay bar. It tends to happen.
The first ex-gay group was “Love in Action,” founded in 1973. It was co-founded by John Evans, a self-proclaimed “former homosexual.” Evans’ friend, Jack McIntyre, was part of the group, and commited suicide because he could not change. Evans left his own group and said, “They’re destroying people’s lives. If you don’t do their thing, you’re not of God, you’ll go to hell. They’re living in a fantasy world.”
In 1976, Exodus International was founder. One of the founders, Michael Bussee, left in 1979 to be with his lover Gary Cooper (not the actor). They eventually had a commitment ceremony.
That’s just a few. I could write a book with the examples I have. These (or rather, people like them) are or were the people who are likely telling you, “I did it. I changed.”
I wince when I hear Camille Paglia talk on any subject. That woman once said that Matthew Shepherd got exactly what he wanted.
She’s made a career out of being a contrarian. She likes to shock.
Because of the context.
None of this is going on in a neutral setting. I’ve seen the ugly underbelly of the ex-gay movement, and I know how often it’s a delusion or a bald-faced lie. At the same time, it’s a highly politicized lie. these people are not saying, “I didn’t like being gay. I changed.” They’re saying “I didn’t like being gay. I changed, so you can too.”
The real point is political. I believe homosexuality is innate, but I don’t like the genetics argument myself. I prefer a humanist one – “we harm no one, and religion should not be a part of the law, and everyone should have the right to find their own way.” But that doesn’t cut it with a lot of people. For some reason, many will only accept it as okay if it’s inborn, and so we have to waste a lot of time proving the scientific reality. Now, I have little doubt that science will eventually prove us right on this, but why should need it too?
The religious right knows it can make use of this, that it can swing this soft support, if it can sow doubt about the innate nature of homosexuality. They fuck up a few fragile, confused people’s minds with their fanatical religious beliefs and discredited psychological theories, and send them out into the world to say, “See! I did it! I changed! Now none of you have to support gay rights!”
Who cares how many lives they destroy along the way, how many suicides they cause? In their minds, they’re doing good work, and some collateral damage is to be expected.
[sub]Gad. I think this is the longest post I’ve ever made[/sub]
I’d been lucky enough not hear that name before. It’s one of the most disgusting, vile, evil, frightening things I’ve ever heard. It evokes all kinds of Orwellian imagery. ‘All the disgusting faggots will burn in hell! Let us and your family make you feel guilty and twisted! Then, you’ll finally come to us and we can brainwash and torture you!’ and they call that the Love of G-d?
And people wonder why I and other gay people give Christianity the stink eye.
Damn, Hamish, reading your post almost made me cry.
It reminds me, (although not quite so damaging or severe), of people who dismiss depression and mental illness by saying, “Oh, you just aren’t trying hard enough! You just need to SMILE and think of all the good things!”
(Of course, depression, unlike homosexuality, is a negative thing, and CAN be taken care of).
Or how they used to make kids who were left-handed use their right hands. Still not as damaging, but it’s one of those things that can mess a person up, to varying degrees. (Supposedly, I read somewhere, that’s why Britain’s George VI stuttered-because he was a lefty who was forced to be a righty).
But like being left-handed, homosexuality is hard-wired, and as a trait, or feature, it’s neutral. Like hair color, or eye color.
What bothers me most about Ben’s blog is the fact that he seems to associate being gay with being highly promiscuous and hanging out in bath houses. And while he will admit, if asked, that not all gay people do that, he seems to cite that as the primary reason why he is looking to become ex-gay. Seriously, when talking about why he wants to leave “gaydom”, he much more frequently mentions bath houses and anonymous sex than he does god, jesus, or his bible.
I’ve shared a few of my thoughts in his blog, but I doubt it will have much of an impact. Were he to ask my opinion, I would tell him he needs to come to peace with his abuse and sex addiction problems first before working on changing his orientation. Even if he were to go straight, he’s likely to keep having problems because he hasn’t really addressed the root causes of his unhappiness.
I don’t think he’s attempting the change becaue of religion. I think he’s trying to change because he thinks the “gay lifestyle” is all about anonymous sex and bath houses. It’s not. I know quite a few gay people, both men and women. I think I could count the number of them who have visited bath houses on one hand’s worth of fingers. Most of my gay friends are either in a relationship or are dating. I don’t think he’s seriously tried either. Other than the anonymous sex partners he’s had, he says he’s only come out to two other people. He’s not in the “gay lifestyle”, he’s in the self-loathing, in-the-closet, using-bath-houses-for-outlet lifestyle.
I sincerely hope he finds help for this abuse and addiction issues before he hurts himself.
JOhn.
Sure it is. And it cuts both ways. I have had several gay freinds talk about social/political pressures they experienced, especially when just out of the closet. I’m well aware of some of the fact that many people have gone in and out of the closet and back and forth as to their orientations. There are all sorts of psychological, social, religious, familial pressures brought to bear from all different directions.
It’s hell.
I don’t envy anyone who’s gone through it, admire those that survive the struggle. I have no kind words for anyone who seeks to impose their will on someone struggling to figure out who they are; but I mean anyone, and I personally know people who had a harder time leaving the gay lifestyle than they did entering it. I know gay men who have been more vicious and cruel than I could have imagined to confused teenage kids who dared to think that maybe they weren’t gay after all.
If you want to trash a specific organization or a church or an individual, fine. If you want to note a trend, fine. But from what I can see, that’s not what you’re doing; you’re issuing sweeping generalizations and universal declarations. Your anecdotes prove only that there are a lot of confused people out there, many of whom get used. I heartily agree. Again, I personally know people who have permanently left a gay lifestyle. Is it possible that they are secretly sneaking out for bathhouse quickies? Maybe; but they say they aren’t, I see nothing to contradict them, and I am not so arrogant or judgemental as to claim to be able to see inside and know what they really think or feel.
I do not see where declaring “homosexuality is always inborn and never chosen” is either intellectually credible or appreciative of the diversity of human experience and psychology. Much worse, I do not see where an attitude that says “they’re all just in denial of their true homosexual nature” is any more compassionate or respectful than the opposite.
Which is what exactly? Eating cornbread and barbecue at a monster truck rallly with Gobear? Dressing up as Minbarri and going to a science fiction convention with Esprix?
What exactly is this “gay lifestyle”? I’ve been watching Will And Grace, but it hasn’t been as informative as I hoped.
:rolleyes:
Please substitute “community” or “a web of freindships, associations and activities shared by some homosexual persons” or whatever you wish.
Dude, you keep talking about “several gay freinds” and you “know people who have permanently left a gay lifestyle”–you’re like a white guy who knows a couple of black guys and therefore feels qualified to address all issues that affect black people.
You, Furt, are just passing on nuggets of info that you are in no position to evaluate. As a gay man, one who probably knows lots more gay folks than you, who sleeps with a gay man every night, I’d be grateful if you would stop acting as if you had an informed opinion.
Because you don’t.
Oh, do you know her?
No?
Then you are a :wally
Don’t have to know her. The belief you say she professes is in the same league as flat-earth theory, Creation Science and a firm faith in aliens with anal probes.
Thank you for so deftly illustrating the confident assertion of absolute knowledge I was talking about.
I don’t claim to know everyone’s situation. I am not saying “all” or “X per cent” or “most” or “many.” I cannot speak to what the trends or patterns are among all homosexuals everywhere; perhaps you feel you can.
But I emphatically can relate what I have seen and heard and been told. And I can point out the hypocrisy involved when people say that those expereiences don’t count because they do not fit the template in which all sexuality is predetermined once and for all. I can point out as intolerance the idea that those people must be marginalized and ignored.
I do not doubt that you know a lot more gay folk than I; I don’t think that gives you an exhaustive knowledge of human sexuality. I daresay that I know more fundamentalist Christians than you, but that it doesn’t therefore follow that I can disregard anything you have to say about them.
To be concrete: I worked in a shelter for teen runaways near Clark and Belmont in Chicago. Some of them came to Chicago because they thought they were gay, some because others told them they were, some were straight until they started hustling and “decided” they wanted to “stay” gay. Is that a population that you can claim 100% knowledge about?
I also was, as a theology student, the only hetero volunteer in a terminal-stage AIDS hospice. Are you ready to proclaim with certainty that there’s no possible way those conversations might have given me some perspective?
I had a freind who went through one of those “ex-gay” groups and “failed,” and has now come to accept himself as gay; I also met a couple people in his group who had various stories. Some felt they were “succeeding.”
Finally, I know of one individual who says that he “struggled with homosexuality” before being “healed” a dozen years ago.
Now, my experience tells me that some people can be very confused, and that for some of them, the orientation they identify with is affected by their history and their choices. I am entirely prepared to concede that my expereiences are anecdotal and limited. If you want to say that those people are very rare, I’ll not argue the point.
But frankly, the instinct to marginalize, to ignore, to deny and to silence is depressingly familiar.
Does it really kill you that someone can actually change and be happy about it?
Why?
Because they DON’T.
He may have convinced himself that he’s happy, and it’s entirely possible that he was bisexual in the first place and merely decided to focus on the heterosexual aspect of that. But his “success” only makes it harder to get people to accept the pain, suffering and nightmare horror that so many gay men and women go through because these monsters in the reparative therapy field hold out this false hope like some kind of shining beacon of God’s love. And as with all of the claims people make for God, it’s never His fault (or the “therapists’” for that matter) when it fails. It’s a lack of faith, or not enough willpower, or a kernel of doubt in the unchanged homosexual’s mind. None of these people ever seems to be willing to consider that maybe it doesn’t matter how much prayer, faith, support or counseling someone goes through, their orientation is immutable.
If I were going around claiming that being Christian was an immature wish-fulfillment fantasy and that Christians were inferior beings who should try not to be Christian anymore but instead follow pagan rituals, for their own good, would you be upset with me? I think you would.
It’s intellectually credible because there is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that says this is the case. There have been stories posted here and several more stories and studies linked in various posts throughout the thread. Does that prove it 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt? Certainly not. But that’s a purely academic distinction.
Since this is the thread for overly stretched analogies:
Imagine you see a man standing on railroad tracks, directly in the path of an oncoming train. He’s absolutely convinced he can survive it, that there’s something different about him that’s going to allow him to will the train to stop or leave him intact after the collision. You’re watching him from the side. You used to be standing right where he was, just as convinced that you’d be able to make it through unharmed. Eventually, after a lot of pain, you realized that there was nothing to be gained by staying there, so you just stepped off. Meanwhile, he’s saying that all of you standing off to the side are pussies. Or sinners. Or deviants.
What’s your moral obligation in that situation? Do you warn him to get off the tracks? Or do you cheer him on? I mean, are you really 100% positive that no one can survive it? How do you know that he’s not the one who’s unbreakable? What right do you have to pull him away, if he’s convinced that he can make it work? Are you trying to ruin his goal just because he’s calling you names? Are you sure that you’re not warning him off the tracks just because misery loves company, and you want some validation that everyone is as weak as you?
It’s funny (funny queer, not funny ha-ha), but I remember reading messages from gay posters on this board several years ago, before I came out. I took many of them as nothing more than Gay Propaganda. They’re hypocrites, I thought, accusing the “religious right” and “conservatives” of trying to tell people how to live, when they’re doing the exact same thing! Except they’re seen as compassionate and admirable for doing so!
I realize now that that’s not what was going on. At least not in most cases. I can’t speak for all homosexuals, but then that’s kind of the point. Yes, there are gay extremists, and some of them are downright assholes. There are people who will try to tell others how to act, and word it in terms of being “true to yourself.” There are those who will forcibly out other homosexuals and justify it by saying that it’s necessary for the gay rights movement and even that by not doing so, you’re somehow complicit in gay-bashing. (I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone who had to go through the process of coming out would put someone else throught that misery if he weren’t ready for it.) But there are extremists in any group. Homosexual is not the same as homogenous.
Do I need this guy to come out in order to validate my own homosexuality? No, I’ve been getting comfortable with it even before I saw his site and was reminded of the lies I used to keep telling myself.
Am I just trying to get this guy to swap one stereotype (miserable closeted gay man) for another (out and proud gay rights activist)? No, in fact it wasn’t until I rejected the idea of a gay stereotype that I was able to be comfortable enough to come out.
Do I want this guy to stop spreading ignorant misinformation about homosexuality that can be used as a tool by homophobes to apply his experience to those of every other gay man? Hell yes I do.
You don’t like football? FAG!
Sorry, I know that’s inappropriate but I couldn’t help it. I agree with your overall point, but again, there’s the context. Whether or not sexual orientation is truly “immutable” for everyone is kind of irrelevant; it’s immutable for me. I can’t and didn’t choose it, so no one has a right to make a “you’ve made your bed, now lie in it” type argument with me. And the larger point is, even if I could change it, I shouldn’t have to.