Opus1 – if you are still around, I hope this provides some further evidence toward what I maintained on the second page of Can suicides go to Heaven – that the Bible is perfectly clear, only that many who claim to be Christians deliberately misinterpret it, and many more follow their interpretation. When Daniel quotes “I came not to judge the world, but to save the word” he knows darn well the very next breath out of Jesus’s mouth continues “but you will be judged anyway if you don’t listen to what I have to say.” Nor can you reason with such people so as to come to a common understanding – they are “saved” end of story. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but they don’t have any fear of the Lord. They are more than willing to twist the Gospels for their own justification and will simply refuse to defend their position. So again, the fault isn’t in the Gospels – it is in those who read the Gospels. See?
On the one hand, I hate to even add to this thread because while it started out as something I could almost sympathize with, it has turned into the usual “I know more than you do, and my interpretation is correct”, and (here’s the important part, since everyone should have some confidence in their own interpretation) not said very politely either. That might be why people get quiet so fast.
On the other hand, I have to think, what?? You have given up your faith because of how other people are? You do know a lot and have obviously invested a lot in learning and reflecting on Scripture. Your faith is through the grace of God. Who cares what other people do, believe, misinterpret? You may feel thwarted in your attempts to spread the good news, but why would this affect your faith in God? Jesus’s disciples didn’t “get it” and even He didn’t give up. I can look out at a world full of people perpetrating what I consider to be immoral acts and it doesn’t change my faith at all.
I know this will sound rude, but I mean it constructively: perhaps it’s your castigation of those who are at least trying that alienates them from listening to your interpretation of the good news.
Yeah, well, I’m going nuts. Either there is one Truth presented in the Gospels – or, Christianity is ultimately a failure, just as much as any system where no one can agree upon what it says. And if, for example (since no examples have been forthcoming from anyone here who claims to be a Christian), “love your enemies and do good to those who do evil” can have multiple interpretations, or people can claim to be Christians while at the same time their actions do not reflect obediance to a teaching which, to my eyes, seems to be rather clear.
I’m not trying to say I’m not morally and spiritually culpable for my own actions anyway. I could save myself – but the nagging feeling remains: why bother. When I die, is the world going to be a better place? If the past sixty generations haven’t come around to Jesus’s message except for a devout handful, was Jesus wrong? And every one of these generations had people who taught falsely, and every subsequent one says: “we’re just doing what our fathers did so we must be right.”
And why should I love my enemy anyway? They probably do deserve to be bombed and killed and imprisoned. And if a few innocents get caught up in the mix anyway, who cares? Why should I care about the poor? Most of them know the gospel yet continue in their greed anyway. Why care about the self-righteous? Why care about those who don’t care about anyone but themselves until their pride fails them?
If I can’t love my neighbor, because he doesn’t love God. I try to help them when they claim they want to love God, and I’m blown off. What good reason is there not to follow their example? Why lose the whole world to save my soul?
But at least he had authority. Of course, he garnered authority by performing miracles – which anyone who has faith should be able to do – but I fear it is a tricky business. I wouldn’t want to hide my light under a bushel, but if it keeps it away from the fire extinguishers…
I know, but “trying” is becoming my least favorite word in the English language. I don’t mean to be rude – but sometime I get hot under the collar. When it gets to the point I can’t even convince someone (Opus1, this time) that words logically mean something, because if they did everyone would read them the same way, and thus there must not be any truth to anything, I get mighty riled at this world and everyone in it.
Would you believe I’m trying! Ha, no – just a joke. I don’t know what to do anymore. It’ll just keep bothering me until I either make another leap or give up on the idea entirely. But, your honesty, gigi at least gives me a little hope.
No, honeybunches. Simply that I know of no Christian who keeps all of Christ’s teachings all the time. I suppose you’re going to tell me that you do?
I don’t think you can point to any that really believe in loving their enemies or doing unto others as other do unto them. A handful of them might claim to without warping the meanings of these phrases, but even then their actions do not actually support their views. But, I’m no good at understanding the convolutions of secular morality.
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You are simply no good at understanding morality of any sort. It is not for you to determine what is in anyone’s heart but your own.
Oh, you’re right. Many people cannot see what you believe to be the consequences. Sorry, Joel, but there is just a chance that your interpretation is not shared by everyone.
All that is neccesary to be saved is that one follow Jesus. If we follow Jesus we keep his commandments. Jesus’s commandments are written down in the Bible and are easy to understand. If we break his commandments then we are not following Jesus. Therefore, if we break any of Jesus’s commandments, we’re gonna get sent straight to Hell. No human being has ever kept all of Jesus’s commandments. Therefore, every human being is gonna go straight to Hell. Except Joel, he’s the only one that follows Jesus.
I just have to comment on this statement here, partly because it seems to me to be at the core of many misunderstandings on this board and IRL, and partly because it assumes a stronger authority for one’s beliefs than I think is warranted.
Words are symbols, and they have meanings that vary depending on who is hearing them. No matter what you or I intend to express, our message is always watered down when put into words, especially words in print, which fail to convey tone, facial expression, and emphasis. They go through yet another filter when the person reading them has to assemble the words, often using slightly different definitions and connotations, into some sort of coherent message. Sometimes the message received is fairly close to the idea the sender wished to convey, and sometimes it’s not. Here in Great Debates probably one message in five contains a “So you are saying this,” phrase, or some other summation or paraphrasing of a previous poster. Quite a lot of posts are also clarifications and semantic wranglings. In short, words are tools that are often too blunt or inexpertly wielded to do their intended jobs. Even an expert wordsmith writing for a perceptive audience has to contend with some level of ambiguity and muddying of message. And all that is true when the speaker is trying to speak plainly. The difficulties are vastly compounded when one speaks metaphorically or poetically, or they use myths and parables without bothering to explicitly say so.
With the Bible, we have even more difficulties than with more straightforward communication. Firstly, there is translation, often multiple translations without an agreed upon authoritative original to fall back to. Translation of a work this size never involves a one to one correspondence in meaning. Even when literal accuracy is achieved, subtleties in phrasing can be lost, and connotations slightly altered.
The subject matter of the Bible is hardly helpful either. Too much prior knowledge is assumed in matters that are hardly verifiable. If the Bible were to truly be an effective handbook on the nature of God and man’s relationship to him, it would define its terms a little better. It would more plainly say, “A soul is this, and it has characteristics X, Y, and Z.” It wouldn’t hint at the idea of a Trinity, but would explicitly delimit the relationship between Jesus, Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit. It would state plainly “You must be baptised to enter heaven,” or “You need not be baptised to enter heaven.” It would not leave the idea of free will vs omniscience undecided and unexplored.
The authorship of the Bible and its many inconsistencies and contradictions also add plenty of mud to the waters, not to mention the fact that there are books extant that were not included in the canon by early theologians. Descriptions of what Jesus said, when, and why, were recorded at best by witnesses many decades after the events described. Even when one has complete confidence that what was said was accurately reported, there is still a contextual issue to sort out. Was Jesus speaking universally when he told the rich kid to give up all his possessions, or was he giving advice to him specifically?
Much of what shaped Christianity comes from Paul, who lends his interpretation of things which, depending on who you talk to, contradict or amplify or clarify the teachings of Jesus. He either pursues his own agenda or was inspired directly by God or was faithful but misinformed.
To sum up, while words do logically mean something, the idea that “everybody would read them the same way” is far from justified even with a much simpler text than the Bible. Even when considering just a single passage, people have to factor in who Jesus was speaking to, under what circumstances, how it compares to other things he has said, whether he was speaking literally or with more license, which author reports the act and how much credence one gives him, what metaphysical terms used really mean, and whether other translations have different shades of meaning. While you may consciously or unconsciously decide any or all of these things to be one way, others may decide differently. Characterizing someone else’s interpretation as wilfully misconstruing Christ’s message is not only unkind but unwarranted unless you have some inside track to their motivations. While it seems perfectly obvious to you that “Jesus mean X,” it can be equally obvious to someone else that he in fact means something else entirely.
Assuming for the sake of argument that Jehovah exists and that Jesus was who he said he was, does this mean that there is ultimately no “Truth” in the Bible? Not at all. What IMHO it means is that there is no way for anyone to be sure that the truth they extract is the Truth. Short of valid divine inspiration, I doubt that any human is capable of finding the whole Truth in so complex a message. The very best anyone could hope for in my estimation is to discover enough of the core truths to allow them to flourish spiritually. If Jehovah is up there, then certainly he knows what a flawed, imperfect medium was chosen to convey his message, and a just god would have to make allowances for that. One should neither despair at their own inability to perfectly grasp the nature of things, nor at the fact that others grasp it differently. There is yet a Flat Earth Society, and that is a matter of fact, easily settled. In metaphysical matters, many of the most insightful and wisest minds have argued about reality for thousands of years, yet the question is still not settled.
… which hardly precludes the possibility, my point.
But if what is in someone’s heart is demonstrated by their actions and words – which seems a reasonable enough theory – it is difficult not to make such a determination. If you are walking down an alley and an armed assailant jumps out from behind a dumpster and says: “give me all your money or I’ll shoot you” – it is wise to determine that he is not in fact bluffing, though of course you can not truly know that. And if the assailant starts shooting at you, it is wise to determine that he might indeed, in his heart, be trying to kill you, right? Even though you can’t truly know what is in his heart, of course. You would be well within your rights to stand there slack jawed while the bullets flew around you, unable to make any judgement of the situation, but I would hope you would pardon me for making certain assumptions and acting upon them in such a situation, or any other situation where some reasonable judgement must be made.
You tell me: if a vegetarian claims he loves cows, and so tries not to eat beef, but still buys beef and throws it away, does he really love cows? After all – he is not slaughtering any cows, nor is he eating any meat. What do you think?
I suppose anyone who has ever eaten meat can’t be a vegetarian either, by your reckoning, correct?
You seem to believe the Christian God has some perverted humanesque accounting system. You can of course pay attention to what Jesus said (Matthew 20, for those playing the home game):
Although, you may not understand it. And some might grumble that the slackers who had just barely begun working the field at the close of business still get paid – but I appreciate the landowner’s generosity myself.
Ptahlis – I appreciate your thoughts on this. It is a problem with any moral system, of course – even the Golden Rule with the ends/means corellary is meaningless if people can’t determine good from bad. So if it is an inherent problem with human communication, I would hope a reasonable person would not maintain the Gospels must not be holy because of this. All these things require wisdom, which may be why Wisdom (a.k.a. the Holy Spirit) is a vital component to this religion and the salvation it teaches.
This is a far cry from the kinds of people you seem most disappointed in. Take a different example, that of someone who has faith in God, reads the Bible prayerfully and seeks the guidance of other faithful in their community. This person has every intention of good in their heart, and yet their interpretation differs from yours. This action of interpretation seems to be most offensive to you, but in fact in their heart that person is searching for grace and the Truth the same way you are. And yet you are disheartened by their actions.
Your use of this parable seems to contradict your original idea that everyone is hopeless and you are going to give up on humanity. Obviously everything will be taken care of by the landowner and it’s not up to us to grumble. Is that where you were going in the first place?
Yes the fault is in those who decide on their own, what the “word” is, and judge others based on that. I do not judge others based on my reading of Jesus’s message. I judge myself only. My faith is that despite my myriad sins, I will be saved anyway, as Christ’s mercy is infinite. I do not judge others- but I hope ALL will be saved. I understand & accept that your reading differs. I respect your faith. but not your ability to judge other folks faith.
But in any case, I can see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears. I can determine what is right, what is wrong, and then it is plain who does which as is plain the truth of what Jesus taught. And if what Jesus taught points out to someone the error of their ways, and they don’t listen to it, and do not mend their ways though I make doubly sure they are aware of it, what is it I’m supposed to conclude?
If they have the intention to do good then they should listen to what Jesus says and they will recieve more wisdom. But if they merely search the scriptures endlessly and never go to Jesus, how will they be saved?
I know that there is always a new struggle born. I know the devil has no power over anyone except those who give him power over themselves. But that doesn’t mean the devil can not win anyway.
He is why I am of two minds and so incapacitated. What did I do to deserve an agony over souls lost that I have never known? If so few believe God, how can I tell anymore which one is the Liar?
But those who are not working in the field at the end of the day do not get paid. This too is taken care of by the landowner. Even today may be the end of his business with me – who knows the hour?
I judge no one. Jesus’s words judge you on their own. You might persist in your vain understanding that God is not just, and that you can get away with all your sins and never repent, but again and again the Gospels make clear this will not be the case. If you do not keep his commandments you will not recieve the spirit. If you are not reborn with this spirit, you will not be saved. These are not my words, but the words of the one you call Lord. Why won’t you listen to what he says? Anyone who has faith in Jesus will do the works which he did, again by your Lord’s own teaching. Are you doing the works which he did? From here I can not tell, but you claimed that doing his works is not needed, which contradicts what Jesus, your Lord, says. Surely Jesus said that you would know who had faith in him by their fruits, which are the good things they bring forth. He did not say to blind yourself regarding who has these fruits and who does not. But now you are saying you do not respect my ability to see who has these fruits and who does not. And he said you must repent and bear good fruit in keeping with repentance, but you say even repentance is not needed. Jesus commanded no one to blind themselves about such matter, did he? Which of you two, who differ on so many things, am I to believe?
Fellow dopers, it ain’t over till it’s over. You can die a cussing murdering fornicator, and get cleansed in the “lake of fire” coming out “clean as a whistle” (check out http://www.tentmaker.org/aboutus.html for the translation error suggesting “eternal damnation.”
It is for this reason that I don’t get hung up on saving your souls. One way or another we will all share in His glory and He will be ** all in all**. But I should share the good news.
I guess I can’t believe that someone who has faith and is consulting the Scripture wouldn’t also turn to Jesus for inspiration, strength and guidance. Even those who have turned away from Him have only to make the smallest advance toward Him and they will be showered with the Spirit.
Forgive me if I’m a little slow on the uptake here. What I think you’re saying is that you have faith, a clear understanding of what to do, and that you must do works to be saved.
Is it possible that works can take on a different form from converting everyone to your view of the good news? I understand that that’s one way to witness, even on these boards, but is there something else you can do as works? Will the example of your actions then lead others to Christ in ways that discussions of Scripture interpretation do not?
To whom much has been given, much will be expected. Is this what worries you, that you have been given a unique insight and that you must spread it, and successfully, or you will have fallen short of what’s expected of you?
But nobody is responsible for this but yourself. I could talk to an atheist until I’m blue in the face about God’s love for me, my love for Him, His will in our lives, etc. Chances are I won’t be successful in changing that person’s mind but that won’t make me give up on my faith in God, or even in that person. I’m not saying don’t try, but giving up on your work in the vineyard because of this is unacceptable.
I appreciate that you don’t just sit on a high horse and think, gee, I’m glad I’m doing the right thing, too bad for those sinners down there. But in the end, God knows these people way better than you and He will take care of it. He gives us free will whether to even turn to Him and He will take care of it. Yes, it’s our job to witness to Him, but not to take saving the world onto our shoulders. I am not absolving myself of responsibility to witness, but there are ways to do it too.
I did not say that following His commandments was not nessesary, nor did I say repentance is not nessesary. “Accepting Jesus as my savior” includes doing His works, and repentance. But we, as Christians have no long list of “Thou shalt & shalt not” to follow. Accepting His mercy is all that is truly nessesary- “the rest is details”. You do not know me, or my works.
Oh, fortunate Joel, I have good news for you! The Pharisees studied the scriptures day and night! They were the scholars who could quote you any line in the law and the prophets(Old Testament). Jesus was saying(I paraphrase), “You guys think your so smart. You research the law and the prophets like no one else, looking for the riddle of the universe, and yet its right in front of you and you can’t see it.” Jesus didn’t have much patience for scholars and bankers. I think maybe he felt like I do sometimes when I’m on line at the Straight Dope.
My analogy is to the parable of the prodigal son. The father did not sit back and expect the son to do all the work in coming to him and begging for mercy (although after his actions this was to be expected). He caught one glimpse of him and ran out to meet him, support him on his way home, and celebrate him being back. Again, as I said above, anyone who takes the time to study the Scripture looking for guidance will also be open the Spirit.
In my personal experience, I was on the wrong path and was inspired to turn back to Him. I just had to open myself to Him in the slightest and He gave me the strength I needed to keep on the right path for His sake. Now when I read Scripture it’s for the lessons but it is in the spirit of love for Him which transforms me. That’s why I say that no one who is reading Scripture with an open heart is not also open to the inspiration of the Spirit.
Would you believe I’m trying! Ha, no – just a joke. I don’t know what to do anymore. It’ll just keep bothering me until I either make another leap or give up on the idea entirely. But, your honesty, gigi at least gives me a little hope.