Not that I think you’ll care one way or another, but for those lurkers who might. . .
From his Call to Renewal Keynote Address.
Not exactly the words of a “strident” man. Barack Obama is not the man you insist on painting him as.
In addition to reasons already stated by others, I support Obama because I think he’s the most intelligent man to run for the office in a long time and the person elected this year is going to need that in droves. I think he has demonstrated the ability to think more than two moves ahead (e.g. one of the most damned things about him is his “pro-infanticide” stance on an Illinois bill, when in actuality he was able to see that it was unconstitutional and would be overturned the first time it was challenged), I think he actually does care about the middle class and (more importantly) has the ability to do something about it, and he has the same values I have. He’s also an expert on constitutional law, has the presence and charisma that’s not at all a trivial asset in the 24/7 media environment, can pronounce nuclear, and isn’t running with Sarah Palin.
I actually would have considered McCain as he was in 2000, but McCain 2000 would never have chosen Palin as a running mate or offered to speak at Bob Jones University or seized on Bill Ayers and ignored every sign that nobody cared, and was 8 years younger.
Slight hijack:
I’m currently reading Sarah Vowell’s Wordy Shipmates, a lighthearted romp through Massachusetts Bay in the early 17th century. I knew who Roger Williams was before and that he was banished/founded Providence/was far better to Indians than his contemporaries/etc., but I didn’t realize what a total hard-ass he was on religious matters. Other Calvinists literally told him, many times, to lighten up, finally banishing him in a freezing winter. He wrote his sick wife “love poems” that mentioned burning in hell for taking communion with the unrighteous; this guy didn’t play when it came to serving the Lord. He also memorized huge chunks of the Bible and had several concordances of his own making.
What I found interesting, and what’s relevance to this thread, is that Williams- the most puritanical of the Puritans and one of the most intellectual- was also the first American to write at length about and denounce (for half a century) any notion of religious values being enforced by the government; he was more adamantly in favor of separation of Church and State than Jefferson (or the Baptist Church whose fears TJ was addressing when he assured them they were separate). He flat out said that the Ten Commandments were NOT the foundation of civil law and was disgusted that the civil courts of Massachusetts enforced any of the first five commandments (which he saw as a strictly religious matter that should be dealt with by the congregation) and noted that the commandments that should be addressed by the courts (murder, property crimes, perjury, etc.) were handled perfectly well if not better in the Algonquin cultures who had never heard of Moses than by the literate and “saintly” English.
The reason I mention this is that I think it’s interesting that this ultra hardshell religious zealot who’s been dead for 325 years and came to Massachusetts when its powerful and elite were almost exclusively Puritan had a clearer understanding of the role of civil government than Palin, or for that matter many of McCain’s supporters/Obama’s detractors. I think the Religious Right is one of the greatest threats to liberty the nation’s ever seen, that there hasn’t been such an easy rallying cry for demagogues to manipulate the masses since Rosa Parks kept her seat, and Obama is the person who has never pandered to them and would most likely stand up to them.
That’s just it… I DON’T live in the USA and haven’t for many years. I am not earning any money in America. If I lived there I would have no problem with paying taxes (though I might argue over the rate as anyone else would). I get very few services for my taxes here. Bush changed the way the foreign exclusion works so it is of little value anymore - my taxes have gone up in recent years.
If an American moved to Haiti, they will still be paying US taxes.
No worries. I never really felt bad about paying taxes when I lived in the US (though I think spending money on a pointless war was a terrible move). However overseas, Americans are at a huge disadvantage compared to UK, Aussie and other expats as only America taxes its people based on citizenship. Expats are such a minority, so I am not sure what Obama’s position on this is or even if he has one.
I do think Obama is the best for America and for the world. Recently when departing Jordan the immigration officer only asked one question of me “Obama or McCain?”. My “Obama” answer resulted in two thumbs up and a big smile from the Jordanian officer.
Right, right, the man who has a 100% rating from Planned Parenthood, the man who told them that the first thing he’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act (theoretically wiping out countless anti-abortion laws), a man who would not support the born alive bill in Illinois (then came out with ridiculous explanation after ridiculous explanation for why he did), the guy who has never, EVER stood up to the base on this issue–he’s a regular pro-life saint, on account of how purty he talks about his feelings. And pre-natal care will reduce abortions, eh? When your own cite says, “The most frequent reasons given by women seeking an abortion are that a child would limit ability to meet current responsibilities and that they cannot afford a child at this point in their lives.”
If Obama supports anything that pushes woman from choosing abortion if they are initially inclined, the base will go insane, and he will not stand up to them on this issue. He never, EVER has. I have seen some ridiculous election themes in my life, but this continuing, “Obama is the better pro-life choice” takes the prize. That people can say this with a straight face is absolutely amazing to me.
So where does it end? He’s abroad, not collecting on any services from the US government, and yet he’s paying more in taxes a year than my MA-wielding girlfriend earns by a full $10k. What if he doesn’t ever move back? What if it’s decades from now? Surely you can appreciate how that might not seem very fair.
Exactly. I have no plans to return to the US full time. I suppose I do get some services: if the UAE is ever invaded, I am sure there is a plan to quickly evacuate all 10,000 Americans in Dubai by helicopter… and a similar plan for the Czech Republic. :rolleyes:
When UK and Aussie expats pay no tax to their home country, I think it is a bit unfair that I should have to pay $50K to a country I have not lived in for more than 6 years and only visit once a year at most. I’d actually be ok with paying a very small tax which is more in line with the services I receive.
I am a citizen as I was born in the US. I lived and worked in the US through university and worked there for a bit after that, earning a near-median wage in the 30-40K range.
I have lived abroad for all of my professional life and have no plans to return. My citizenship is surely worth something and I am happy to pay a bit of tax, but I think the amount I pay relative to the services I get is way out of line. I am quite certain askeptic would feel the same way if he were living abroad. Taxation is probably the biggest policy issue overseas Americans have since were are at such a competitive disadvantage to our foreign colleagues.
So you’re complaining because you want to retain your citizenship but pay less than other citizens have to?
I support Barack Obama because he is intelligent, articulate, and may actually have a chance at rebuilding some of our lost credibility on the world stage. He opposed the Iraq War from the very beginning, and unlike his opponent, doesn’t want to keep us there indefinitely. He supports a woman’s right to choose. His campaign has demonstrated calm, steady judgment while his opponents have fallen all over themselves. In the event anything should happen to him, he has a running mate whom we can actually trust at the reins.
I know he’s not perfect. But the guy is inspiring and a breath of fresh air. A politician I can actually admire and say to my kids, “This is what a leader is supposed to be like.” After the last embarrassing and cynic-inducing eight years, we can’t afford not to elect him.
Yes. Americans overseas can’t make use of roads, police, fire departments, schools or most any other US government service, thus I think it is reasonable that we should pay less. It is as if you were working in one state, then moved to another state and planned to never return to the first state, but still had to pay tax there (and in your new state) for the rest of your life. If you lived in 7 or 8 states throughout your life, do you think you should continue paying tax to all of them?
Brits, Aussies, Kiwis and nearly all other nationalities pay zero tax to their home country whilst living abroad… only paying tax to the country where they live.
I think one should only pay tax in the locality where they live.
I’d love to know what Obama and McCain think, but American expats are brushed aside and don’t matter although there are more of us than there are citizens of many states… about 4 million Americans overseas these days.
When you live overseas, something like the first $90,000 of your salary is not taxable by the U.S., as long as you meet certain conditions of overseas residence. Most countries also have tax treaties with the U.S., so any money you pay there can be deducted from U.S. taxes.
If you’re still paying taxes, then it means you’re doing pretty well, or maybe all your income comes from non-salary sources? If you think your citizenship isn’t providing you any benefits, I suppose you could always give it up.
Interestingly, I was just at a conference on Friday that was discussing Roger Williams, and religious freedom. It is often overlooked that Williams’ main point in separating church and state was to keep the state out of the church, and not the other way around as is usually the case today.
One of the speakers mentioned that it was the Baptists of Virginia, specifically John Leland, who got James Madison to promise to work on passing the Bill of Rights, specifically the separation of church and state, because they were looking to disestablish the Episcopal Church as Virginia’s state sanctioned church. While there was a compromise afoot to allow state support of other churches in Virginia at the time, the Baptists did not want any state sanction of religion.
Too bad Jerry Falwell missed that part of the story.
Yeah, I don’t get it. A lot of people don’t avail of themselves of the same services as others, based on their personal choices. If you want citizenship, there’s no reason to be treated any differently from any other citizen.
The repubs have aided and abetted the looting of America. They have spent 8 years killing oversight and regulation. The whole world is paying the price for their excesses.
They have pushed the wealth gap to unheard of extreme.
They have been war mongers and lied to attack sovereign countries. They have waged war and refused to tax to pay for it. No one in our history ever did such a dumb thing. They have ruined our economy and horribly increased the national debt. They have destroyed the world respect for the US. They have tortured and spied on their own people while lying about it ,over and over.
I do not love Obama but he is not one of these people., McCain is. Obama is also a thoughtful and intelligent man. That gives some hope that he can respond intellectually to future problems. Bush and McCain have not demonstrated that ability.
The foreign tax exclusion helps. Originally, the $85,000 exclusion worked so that the 85,001st dollar was taxed as if it was the first dollar one earned but now the 85,001st dollar is taxed at the rate pertaining to $85K so one immediately falls into the 28% range. About half of my income comes from non-salary sources so there is no foreign benefit there.
I am doing better than many, but do feel like my citizenship is a liability in some ways. For example quite a few banks here refuse to open accounts for Americans because of the IRS reporting rules that they do not want to have to deal with.
I can see this to a point. But in the many countries where a tax treaty does not apply (a quick Google shows tax treaties only exist in about 1/3 of countries), Americans are put at a huge disadvantage where trying to compete with other nationals.
e.g it makes no sense to pay 35% of my income to the US and then 45% to the country I’d be working in… I’d lose 80% of my income to tax.
I honestly do not see this any differently than if one lived in San Francisco, one does not pay New York income tax, even though you can freely go drive on New York roads and make use of government services there.
Obviously not everyone will agree with me… and that’s fine. I’ll sit here overseas paying for services I’ll never use, but at least I can get health insurance here.
Like I said, not that you’d care. Supporting a woman’s right to protect her body from government intrusion is not the same thing as supporting killing babies. John McCain has NO PLAN to do anything about making contraceptives more available and affordable, NO PLAN to improve child care availability and affordability so women are freer to CHOOSE to have their babies, NO PLAN to improve ADOPTION options to encourage more women to make that their CHOICE.
Caring about life means caring about ALL life, especially those lives that are already living, breathing and struggling to survive. If you think for one moment that a repeal of Roe would magically eliminate any and all abortions, you’re deluding yourself. Better that we create a society and environment where abortion is rare and only opted for when medically necessary. But John McCain doesn’t care about the “health” of the women involved. He’ll do absolutely nothing, NOTHING, that will have any realistic effect on abortion rates, but you’d rather have someone who shares your philosophy, even if it’ll never, ever actually be legislated, than someone who’ll actually DO something to try to save as many of the unborn as possible.
And for the record, for those who’re paying attention in the background and who actually care, it’s really disingenuous of you to misrepresent Barack Obama’s position on the Illinois bill regarding late term abortions. FACT: Illinois already HAS A LAW IN PLACE that requires doctors to take live-saving measures on babies born alive in a late-term abortion; they didn’t NEED another one. FACT: the proposed legislation was UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Why would anyone want a legislator, let alone a President, who’s willing to sign legislation that is unconstitutional? That’s insane.
It must make sense, because despite your complaints, you would still rather retain citizenship than stop paying for it.
I guess you support a system under which citizens only pay taxes for services they personally use? Because as pointed out before, obviously, many, many Americans who live here don’t use the services their tax money goes to supporting for the civic good.