Open discussion on becoming vegetarian / vegan

[Broomstick]

@Dinsdale

My practice is to (if I think of it) ask if there are any foods they CAN’T eat. Or failing that, to have alternative dishes, so if someone doesn’t like/can’t-won’t eat one, they can fill up on something else.

Right. Which I’ve been raised to think was being a gracious hostess - do your best to make sure everyone can eat something, for the most difficult cases suggest the person bring a dish of their own, and don’t pressure anyone to eat/drink anything they’re uncomfortable with.

Unfortunately, from time to time I have encountered people who seem absolutely determined that everything on a table must be eaten by everyone, who insist on “just a bite to be polite!” (No thanks - trust me, neither of us wants you to have to call 911 on my behalf). That is one of the difficulties of living in a multi-cultural society, occasionally definitions of “polite” clash.

@Dinsdale

My 2 biggest problems with this were w/ Jews - unthinkingly adding bacon, and putting cheese on burgers.

On the other hand, kosher-observant Jews do seem to be very good at avoiding something forbidden even as a little bit, as a general rule because they already practice that to a certain extent all the time.

Back when I was ordering food for a 40-60 member group of a corporation for the very observant Jews (because there’s more than one definition of “kosher”) we’d just order a meal for them from a specialty kosher catering service. There are all sorts of potential pitfalls with keeping kosher, to the extent that even though our local Jewish Federation has a kosher kitchen that is overseen by multiple certified mashgiachim we still have a group of Jews who don’t consider it kosher enough.

@Dinsdale

If I had some food issues and any uncertainty, I’d definitely not show up places starving!

Absolutely!

One problem I do have with people trying to “accommodate” vegetarians is that most of the faux-meat products are off-limits to me due to containing items I am allergic to - so my vegetarian eating contains none of those. In many ways it’s easier for me to just eat the meat than to try to negotiate the complications of the faux-meat. On the other hand, I’ve a number of dishes that are either vegetarian or can easily be made so I can bring as a side dish. Heck, my vinegar slaw is vegan without even trying, gluten-free by nature, and so forth. There is a LOT of vegetarian food out there, it’s just that people aren’t used to thinking of it that way.

Once had an ovo-lacto vegetarian boss who, when traveling, would frequently suggest steakhouses as a place for everyone in the group to eat - most of them have baked potatoes you can load up with toppings, a lot of them have salad bars, all of them have some sort of bread, and she’d make a meal of that and maybe a vegetable side as well and all without making a big deal of her food choices. Also once had a Hindu coworker who’d order a Whopper at Burger King - but hold the meat. So he’d basically be getting a cheese sandwich on a bun with lots of toppings. Are these ideal ways of eating vegetarian? Well, no, but they’re examples of how you can go that way even eating in a group of omnivores.

[kayaker]

@Broomstick

(because there’s more than one definition of “kosher”)

I was reading about a fake pork product from the Impossible people that is 100% vegetable matter. In fact I believe it is vegan.

Despite this, rabbis studying the situation refuse to give it kosher certification.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Broomstick

Even worse are the people who try to sneak things or trick me into eating what I shouldn’t. Absolutely that is wrong, and I don’t care what the reason is - don’t give allergens to someone allergic, don’t sneak sugar (in any form) into a diabetic’s food, don’t put bacon in the meal of a Jewish or Muslim person, don’t put meat into the vegan’s soup, don’t swap gluten-containing bread for the celiac sufferer’s gluten-free dinner rolls, don’t put broccoli in President Bush’s salad.

In many jurisdictions, this would be a crime. Tampering with someone’s food or drink is NOT cool.

[Broomstick]

These would be the sticking points:

But he said he was concerned about marit ayin , or appearance to the eye, a concept in Jewish law that prohibits actions that appear to violate Jewish law, even if they technically do not. The concept raises the concern that someone who sees Held eating an Impossible Pork banh mi sandwich, for example, might think that he eats non-kosher meat.

A different concept, lifnei iver , or not placing stumbling blocks before the blind, could also come into play. The concept raises a related concern: whether someone who sees an observant Jew eating Impossible Pork dumplings could conclude that pork must actually be kosher.

For a fun time observe a discussion between sephardim and ashkenazim about whether eating fish with dairy is permitted or not, which will bring up both marit ayin and lifnei iver. It also comes up with chicken

To get back on track: do some vegetarians/vegans have an issue with faux-meat along similar lines? Maybe with the notion that faux-meats might give someone the impression they eat meat when they don’t?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

I’ve been a vegetarian for 32 years now and have never encountered that attitude, Broomstick.

[Dinsdale]

@Broomstick

…Unfortunately, from time to time I have encountered people who seem absolutely determined that everything on a table must be eaten by everyone, who insist on “just a bite to be polite!” …

Not just vegan/kosher type stuff. My wife has a real sweet tooth, and it is a constant effort to not overdo it on the things she knows she has difficulty resisting. Until she pointed it out to me, I had never noticed how ubiquitous sweets and such are - candy dishes and such. And when she goes to book clubs and such, hostesses tend to have too much food and keep pushing it.

I’m very fortunate that food just isn’t that important to me. And I either hav a crazy metabolism or a tapeworm, cause I can pretty much eat as much of whatever I want.

[Two_Many_Cats2]

@Mijin

There would have been a time and environment where humans needed meat to survive (like with your example of the bear).
That’s not the case in most of the world now, if anywhere, so it’s irrelevant to the dietary choices of a human in the modern world.

Just because there’s more choices in diet now, and it is wholly possible to survive without meat, doesn’t necessarily make the choice to eat meat morally wrong. These are variations in an individual’s perception in recognizing the difference between what is acceptable behavior and what is not. The slaughter of animals for food in my perception is not a moral good, but the practice of it is acceptable behavior. Others perceive animal slaughter for food as a moral wrong. That is their perception, not mine.

I perceive abortion as a moral wrong, but an acceptable act. I would never have an abortion myself, but I would not condemn someone who does, because their perception of morality is different than mine. That’s why I’m pro-choice.

[Mijin]

@Two_Many_Cats2

Just because there’s more choices in diet now, and it is wholly possible to survive without meat, doesn’t necessarily make the choice to eat meat morally wrong

Sure. But I was making sure that I took down both heads of the Naturalistic argument.
Lots of things that are natural are bad, and while humans may have once needed meat for survival, we don’t any more.

@Two_Many_Cats2

I perceive abortion as a moral wrong, but an acceptable act. I would never have an abortion myself, but I would not condemn someone who does, because their perception of morality is different than mine. That’s why I’m pro-choice.

However we aren’t talking about judging other people’s actions. Whether to eat meat is a choice we all have to make for ourselves.

I was simply stating the observation that most people IME have some degree of cognitive dissonance on this subject. They believe animals suffer in the meat industry, they think unnecessary suffering is wrong, but they still eat meat.

I’d say in about half of the cases, the person just tries not to think about it. I belong(ed) to that set. Dropping meat seemed a massive hassle and it was easier to put off that decision until Tomorrow^TM

The other half think of some justification, and then try to avoid scrutinizing that justification. Like the naturalistic fallacy that you alluded to.

If someone didn’t care about suffering, or thought all animals are p-zombies, that could be a consistent position. But these seem much less common positions to take.

[Two_Many_Cats2]

@Mijin

The other half think of some justification, and then try to avoid scrutinizing that justification. Like the naturalistic fallacy that you alluded to.

It’s not a fallacy. Predators kill to eat meat. Humans are predators. If your only counter-argument is ‘we don’t have to eat meat now to survive’, that does not prove that meat eating is a moral wrong.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

The conflict isn’t the killing to eat meat, the conflict is keeping animals suffering until they are killed to be eaten.

(edited for clarity)

[Two_Many_Cats2]

@Snowboarder_Bo

the problem isn’t the killing to eat meat, the problem is keeping animals suffering until they are killed.

I agree. Farming methods need a wholesale overhaul.

[Mijin]

@Two_Many_Cats2

Humans are predators

Says who?
Historically we were but that’s meaningless now.

@Two_Many_Cats2

If your only counter-argument is ‘we don’t have to eat meat now to survive’, that does not prove that meat eating is a moral wrong.

It wasn’t a counter-argument to anything, it was part of explaining why the naturalistic argument doesn’t work. Are you maintaining that the naturalistic argument does work? Because I don’t think you’re going to have much fun defending that corner.

[Mijin]

@Snowboarder_Bo

The conflict isn’t the killing to eat meat, the conflict is keeping animals suffering until they are killed to be eaten.

I agree. If animals were all raised humanely, virtually as pets, then quickly and painlessly slaughtered at some advanced age, I wouldn’t personally have any issue with eating that meat.
Unfortunately that’s far from the reality today, so in the meantime I think for my own peace of mind I would prefer to drop meat.

[Two_Many_Cats2]

@Mijin

Says who?
Historically we were but that’s meaningless now.

Oh no, it isn’t. Humans are predators all right. Not just in diet. Violence and greed is part of our nature. Accepting that makes sense of the suffering in the world.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

Makes sense of? Or excuses?

[Two_Many_Cats2]

Makes sense of, of course. Doesn’t excuse it. Hurting others, society has decreed, is a moral wrong.

Society has not decreed killing animals for meat a moral wrong. Therefore, if you are so inclined, eating meat is not wrong. If you decide individually that eating meat is a moral wrong, then don’t eat meat. But do not condemn others for eating it. Same as with the abortion example I mentioned earlier.

[BigT]

@Two_Many_Cats2

Makes sense of, of course. Doesn’t excuse it. Hurting others, society has decreed, is a moral wrong.

Society has not decreed killing animals for meat a moral wrong. Therefore, if you are so inclined, eating meat is not wrong. If you decide individually that eating meat is a moral wrong, then don’t eat meat. But do not condemn others for eating it. Same as with the abortion example I mentioned earlier.

The problem with that argument is that it means that what society considers wrong can never change.

If someone believes something is morally wrong, then they inherently do not think other people should do it, either. That’s what a moral wrong is: something you believe should not occur.

So what we wind up with is a balancing act. Sure, you don’t want to condemn people and make them resentful. But, at the same time, you do genuinely believe that the world would be better if they’d stop. And, of course, we all have a responsibility to make the world a better place.

And I say this as someone who has come down on the side of eating meat. (I’ve detailed why elsewhere, but I’m uninterested in having that conversation again, especially when this thread isn’t the place for it.) I’m just explaining why it’s not as simple as telling vegetarians to not judge the rest of us.

I have less sympathy for the anti-abortion side, but that’s largely because I find a lot of their arguments are inconsistent with other beliefs they have. The anti-meat argument (or at least, anti-industrial-meat argument) is much more robust.

It seems this thread is mostly the OP talking to those who have gone vegetarian (or at least considered it). It’s more about asking for advice on how to do it and the issues that may come. I don’t really think this thread is for us, unless we want to read about how we might reduce our meat consumption to some degree.

[Two_Many_Cats2]

I don’t agree that my argument means that society’s moral decrees can never change. Society’s views on morality change all the time. Slavery was once considered an acceptable practice. In our own time gay marriage has become morally accepted.

In time, future generations may view meat eating as morally wrong, and wonder how we could eat flesh without guilt. Maybe some statues will be pulled down, who knows.

[Mijin]

The point is, it is not about what one person thinks of another person’s choice to eat meat.

It’s about whether a person is being consistent with their own morality in doing so. IME, most people aren’t.

People justify meat eating, to themselves, using poor arguments that they would not use in other contexts. Any justification is sufficient if it lets you get on with life and the business of preparing the next meal.

[eburacum45]

@Two_Many_Cats2

n time, future generations may view meat eating as morally wrong, and wonder how we could eat flesh without guilt.

In the future, artificial meat that is indistinguishable from killed meat may be available. I can imagine a society where the only meat that is socially acceptable is artificial meat. Quite possibly, artificial meat could be manufactured without cruelty, and with a much lower carbon footprint/energy cost than killed meat.

In such a society only the very callous would choose to eat farmed meat, although I could sympathise with people who want to hunt and eat suitably abundant animals of various kinds.