Open letter to Bricker

[Scylla]

@Hombre

Yep. Why is this in the pit if it really was advise for Bricker?

I’ll 'splain:

You see, there’s this thing in the literary tradition called the “open letter.” It’s a bit of a conceit, like writing in the second person. The idea is that it’s a bit of an obvious, head fake.

You’re ostensibly writing this letter for one specific person but you really want other people to read it as well. Accepting the conceit, the reader is forced into a more empathic viewpoint by his pseudo-voyeurism than he would be were it not so framed. Hence, my use of the device.

[VinylTurnip]

Horseshit.

And fuck you.

Love,
VT

[Jodi]

@Tamerlane

Huh. You know I generally think you’re sensible person. Do you honestly think Scylla has even half a point here with this thread?

Yes. So you can take my opinion FWIW given whatever the hell you think about me.

Mind you, Bricker does not come out smelling like a rose in this either, IMO. My response to his OP was “bitter much”? But to call him a cunt? The lowest form of humanity ever?

I leave the boards every once in a while. Not with an I’m leaving! drama queen exit, I just kind of wander off. (Thus far, and obviously, I’ve evenutally wandered back.) The first time I left, I got bored. The second time, I didn’t like myself here. I’m thinking of wandering off again. If I do, this time it will be because I don’t like a lot of the other people here.

Like you, I did not participate in the thread in question, I’m sick of the partisanship, and I’m not taking sides. But I was reading during the Lawless Weekend, I’ve read the Bricker thread and associated threads, and I’ve participated in a handful of other threads here in the Pit, and what I see, to be quite honest about it, is a bunch of meanspirited assholes, both to the left and to the right, both red and blue.

I know, I know: Don’t let the door hit me in the ass, etc. And I never do. But in the meantime, couldn’t we just try dialing down the drama and hostility a couple of notches? Because we are better than we have been lately. We are just better than this, that’s all.

[Scylla]

@Giraffe

I’ll never understand why people complain about pile-ons. Unpopular opinions posted to a public forum are going to provoke negative reactions. The opinions may be unpopular simply because the majority of the forum is strongly predisposed to the opposing sentiment or it may be because they are presented in a combative, jerkish manner, but either way, that’s how message boards work. Everyone gets a single voice, and sometimes those voices form a consensus.

Oh, I have no problem with that. The “Your argument is a piece of shit” pile on is A-OK in my book.

The pile on that I don’t like is the “You are contemptible human being who is wholly worthless” personal attack, sort of pile on, which is just a mean attempt to provoke a meltdown.

What’s funny is that the OP fondly remembers pile-ons from the old days, of people like Jack Dean Tyler and Phaedrus, to demonstrate how different the board is today. That was just good fun back then, I guess. Now it’s the work of twisted shut-ins lurking in the shadows, waiting to irrationally pounce on any noble beacon of right-thinking.

I recall those as being more of the former type that I described and less of the latter type. I think the fact that those mostly occured in GD, bears this viewpoint.

Jack Dean Tyler! That was it.

(I really would like to get you your $20, or liverwurst. Will you PM and address and a preference? I made that bet with full knowledge that you were the moderator. I did not think it unfair at the time, nor do I wish to welch.)

[Harborwolf]

@Scylla

But he made it all the way through Showgirls?

Showgirls has boobies. Maybe your posts need more boobies.

And of course that link goes where you think it goes. I’m nothing if not mature.

[Scylla]

@lissener

Oh, THAT’S why you took so long to respond. You were googling for an insult.

That wasn’t really an insult, either.

[Scylla]

@Harborwolf

Showgirls has boobies. Maybe your posts need more boobies.

And of course that link goes where you think it goes. I’m nothing if not mature.

The version I saw was on TNT and they put in CGI bikini tops. Even if he saw the other version, he’s gay and presumably doesn’t find boobies that intriguing (or so I assume.)

[lissener]

@Scylla

I’ll 'splain:

You see, there’s this thing in the literary tradition called the “open letter.” It’s a bit of a conceit, like writing in the second person. The idea is that it’s a bit of an obvious, head fake.

You’re ostensibly writing this letter for one specific person but you really want other people to read it as well. Accepting the conceit, the reader is forced into a more empathic viewpoint by his pseudo-voyeurism than he would be were it not so framed. Hence, my use of the device.

Dude, if you were half as smart as you think you are . . . well, you’d still be pretty dumb. But you’d be smarter than you are now.

[Harborwolf]

@Scylla

The version I saw was on TNT and they put in CGI bikini tops. Even if he saw the other version, he’s gay and presumably doesn’t find boobies that intriguing (or so I assume.)

Never understood the point of showing Showgirls on basic cable. Takes out all the good…bits (ZING). And you watched it on TNT? Read Playboy for the articles do you?

[Giraffe]

@Scylla

Oh, I have no problem with that. The “Your argument is a piece of shit” pile on is A-OK in my book.

The pile on that I don’t like is the “You are contemptible human being who is wholly worthless” personal attack, sort of pile on, which is just a mean attempt to provoke a meltdown.

I recall those as being more of the former type that I described and less of the latter type. I think the fact that those mostly occured in GD, bears this viewpoint.

There were quite a few memorable threads with the aforementioned characters in the Pit, with quite a few “attack the person, not the argument” posts and jokes flying around.

But anyway, I don’t think getting angry at people and calling them names is such a cardinal sin. (Heck, I seem to remember you yourself starting a thread Pitting a handicapped guy for owning a Dodge Viper with a rather impressively insulting OP.) We all have beliefs and character traits which we find abhorrent in others, and which provoke anger and disgust. As long as we all hang out at the same message board, history is going to accumulate between people and release itself in outbursts of irritation and insult. I don’t think it’s evidence that people are looking for the pile-on so much as simply venting about things that irritate them.

I do agree that it would be wonderful if we had more articulate conservative posters around here. Both the Pit and general debate dynamics of a message board don’t work nearly as well when one side is so poorly represented. I don’t think complaining about the imbalance is the way to go, though – simply carrying oneself well and calling out those on the other side who do not would be a far better approach.

@Scylla

(I really would like to get you your $20, or liverwurst. Will you PM and address and a preference? I made that bet with full knowledge that you were the moderator. I did not think it unfair at the time, nor do I wish to welch.)

For those who missed Amnesia Weekend, Scylla bet me $20 we’d have to cancel it by Sunday night. Little did he know, I was painting all weekend and didn’t really care if things got too silly, so no cancellation happened until the server was wiped for the upgrade.

As I said, I’d be more than happy if you were to just go ahead and give it to a charity that feeds hungry people. However, if you do prefer sending (non-meat) payment to me, I’ll PM you my address. I’m either giving it to charity, or perhaps the Obama campaign in honor of this whole kerfluffle.

[iampunha]

@Scylla

Accepting the conceit, the reader is forced into a more empathic viewpoint by his pseudo-voyeurism than he would be were it not so framed.

I’m going to guess, and this is only a guess, that for this to work, the reader already has to be sympathetic to the cause.

And since you realize now that this is going to be a long and pointless thread (in terms of anyone coming to agree on anything vs. the volume of crap everyone else will quote, read and think is just plain wrong), with the sides already mostly decided and people taking the opportunity to rehash old grievances and go at each other for still being wrong, …

looks to me like an open invitation for a lot of people to get pissed off at each other. I’d thank you, or something, for the Pit refresher this will be for those of us who’ve been away for a year or more, but we already have one of those, though you obviously already knew that:) So I guess the only other purpose it serves is to let those of us who’ve been away for a while to find out who’s still here.

[Robot_Arm]

That’s out of line, lissener. I like Jodi’s request that we can be better than this.

I think Scylla’s OP is without merit, but I can say that without adding an insult.

[Scylla]

@lissener

Dude, if you were half as smart as you think you are . . . well, you’d still be pretty dumb. But you’d be smarter than you are now.

You want to hear something really weird?

I really enjoy interacting with you, and I’ve grown to truly like you. Seriously.

It’s like when I go jogging, there’s this dog that comes right up to the fence barking. Used to scare the shit out of me. The dog used to hate me.

Now, nothing on the surface has changed. I still run, he still barks. But, I imagine that my running by is a part of the day that dog looks forward to. If I don’t show up, I think he gets worried. I think I detect some relief in the bark the next day when I show up. I know if I run by and he’s not there I’m a little disapointed and worried about him. I hope he’s ok. I’m always relieved the next day when he’s barking at me.

Over the years, I’ve come to think of you affectionately… like I do that dog.

[Tamerlane]

@Jodi

Yes. So you can take my opinion FWIW given whatever the hell you think about me.

Oh, you’re generally on the “good list” :).

But in the meantime, couldn’t we just try dialing down the drama and hostility a couple of notches? Because we are better than we have been lately. We are just better than this, that’s all.

Perfectly reasonable and I agree. However…I can’t say that I think this OP is a particularly fine example of “toning down the drama.”

[gonzomax]

@Scylla

Bricker:

You may remember that you and I started on this board at about the same time in '99. Things were a little different back then. I remember getting my ass kicked by the likes of Davidb, Gaudere, and Dr. Fidelius in scientific discussions, and feeling greatful about it. The board was much more about factual debate on pretty tangible subjects, and not so much about politics.

We even had a better class of troll back then. People like Phaedrus were utterly and hopelessly insane in truly entertaining ways. What was the name of that Noah the Ark guy? The foreskin guy?

While the board leaned to the left back then us conservative types were welcome and respected. You could get your ass kicked, or kick ass in one discussion, but nobody held it against you in the next.

Back in those halcyon days you and I both attained respect and status for our contributions on a variety of subjects. (Mine was considerably greater, neener neener.)

Those days are gone. With them are gone Spiritus Mundi, Satan, John Corrado, Unclebeer, Kaylasdad, David B, Gaudere hardly ever posts. A whole host of other worthies have also left. What have they been replaced with?

Look in your pile-on thread.

What type of people are these? Let me share a joke with you:

A guy goes bear hunting. He sees this black bear cub and he shoots it. He gets tapped on the shoulder and when he turns around he’s face to face with a 7 foot tall brown bear. “You really shouldn’t have done that,” says the bear. “Now I either have to kill you or rape you and molest you real bad.”

“I want to live,” says the man. The bear rapes and molests the man real bad. The man crawls to a hospital. Six weeks later he’s out of the hospital. He grabs his gun and goes hunting for the bear that raped him. Finally, he tracks it down and shoots it dead. He gets tapped on the shoulder, and when he turns around he’s looking at an 8 foot tall Kodiak.

“You really shouldn’t have done that,” says the Kodiak. “Now I either have to kill you, or rape you real Real bad.”

“Well, I want to live,” says the man. So the Kodiak rapes the man real Real Bad. This time it’s four month before the man is out of the hospital. Once again he picks up his gun, tracks down his adversary and shoots it dead. He gets tapped on the shoulder, and when he turns around he’s face to face with a ten foot tall Grizzly.

The grizzly looks at him puzzled for a moment. “You ummm… You’re not really hear for the hunting, are you?”

---

I’ve been on the receiving end of quite a few pile ons. I’m not saying you’re the bear, and I’m not saying you’re the hunter. But, I will tell you this:

The people in that thread attacking you are not there for the debate. They are there for the pile on. They are their to hurt you. They take pleasure in it. It’s nothing personal, because any adversary will do.

If you have a bad job, no job, or your mentally ill. If life has not been all that it could have been. If you’re bitter, a shut-in, divorcee or outcast, you may not have much else but this board. It might feel good to give it to somebody else for a change. Somebody better than them.

Others just enjoy the show.

Still another’s need not look to their own failings to justify the pleasure they take in the pile on.

You’re a pretty normal guy with your positives and negatives. I look at some of the things that were said to you and about you in that thread and I cannot reconcile them with respectable human behavior. There’s a lot of those people here, and on this board most of them are liberals. There’s really only a few of us stubborn types from the old days left. Most of the rest of us have left, or keep quiet when the leftist ilk is trolling for blood.

If you’re going to stay, you have to ask yourself the question. Are you really here for the debate?

To some, to attack you, pile on, go after you personally, condemn you, and attempt to provoke a meltdown is nothing more than entertainment.

I think your words over the last ten years speak for themselves. Your record as a thoughful debater, humorous, informative trivia master who’s more than willing to poke fun at himself, as well as your flexible mind which enables you to conceed a point strongly argued is a record that few (save myself, of course) can compare with.

Because they cannot equal it, they refuse to acknowledge it. In truth they resent the unflattering comparison and it counts against you. The value is in tearing it and you down to a level where the comparison is not so unflattering.

Respect and goodwill are meaningless except as tools of coercion and extend only so far as your ongoing cooperation and acknowledgement of the current group think.

Don’t sweat the small stuff.

Stay golden Poney Boy. Stay golden.

Not even slightly true. He deliberately starts shit for the fun. He tweaks posters and I think enjoys the fight and relishes the attention.

[GIGObuster]

@Scylla

Bricker:

You may remember that you and I started on this board at about the same time in '99. Things were a little different back then. I remember getting my ass kicked by the likes of Davidb, Gaudere, and Dr. Fidelius in scientific discussions, and feeling greatful about it. The board was much more about factual debate on pretty tangible subjects, and not so much about politics.

In a message board whose motto is to “fight ignorance” seeing a VP candidate that supports teaching creationism in schools and dismisses evidence that man is the cause of the current global warming, I do say that if you want to discuss science, Palin does deserve the scorn of smart Republicans too.

On the non scientific front just the ass kissing to the Alaskan Independence Party insults any intelligence by now saying that she will have the interests of all Americans in mind.

When I see that even the smart Republican pundits are dissing the VP candidate in private I have to assume that smart people like **Bricker, Scylla, ivylass, Starving Artist **and others already know the truth of the sorry McCain choice, but I think it is too much to expect that they would be sincere with others in public, even in the SDMB.

[TVeblen]

Great. More attention whoring.

Scylla, you’re the despicable shit who, during the invasion of Iraq, attacked anyone and everyone who even dared question that weapons of mass destruction would be found. Remember those ‘good old days’? A lot of posters, including me, hoped like hell to be wrong and Bush’s stated excuse for invading another country and starting a fucking war would somehow be proven true. We were excoriated as ‘jackal puke’, unpatriotic, weak–for even wondering whether the weapons inspectors and dubious international folks were right.

You made a big, public deal on the board that if those pesky weapons of mass destruction in fact were not found by Thanksgiving of that year you’d seriously reconsider your stance on the war and support for Bush.

Thanksgiving came and went. And you went with it. Just slunk away. All that fiery Republican warrior spirit…just went silent, and stayed that way for a long time, especially on political matters. But then you started up again, a victim of all those vicious board libruls.

I didn’t expect a retraction or an apology, from you or any of the others who slung around insults and accusations of cowardice, coddling terrorists, etc. It was a tense, ugly time. People make mistakes, heartfelt, honest ones. Especially when misled by deliberate lies from those they trusted. Those betrayals cut the deepest and leave scars that won’t heal. Or not. Betrayal and dishonesty are weirdly okay with some fanatics.

What I will not forgive nor forget is the behavior of many ‘conservatives’ toward non-GOP loyalists since then. I’m not a party animal of any stripe so I don’t get the rabid my-team-or-EVIL boosterism. You’re a die-hard Republican. So are a bunch of my family, mostly of the staunch Goldwater variety. I’m the Independent oddball of the family. But with one exception, none of even those ardent Republican partisans swallowed Rove/Bush’s shit then swore it was peanut butter. They didn’t accept the neocon lies and they sure as hell never forgot. They never dug in their feet and kept digging, deeper and deeper, to avoid an unpalatable truth: the current administration sucked. And got worse and worse, with wire tapping, imprisoning people indefinitely without trial, etc.

They hate it, but they don’t pretend the GOP hasn’t gotten root rot. They sure as hell didn’t campaign or vote for the incompetent, dishonest bastards the second time. Some of them stayed away from the polls that second election for Rove/Shrub, others went with marginal candidates or just didn’t vote. They’re at a loss and defensive and depressed and pissed as hell. But at GOP opportunists who pimped out the party to religious extremists and gladiator campaign whores.

The difference with you–and Bricker, and Shodan and Starving Artist–is that you still don’t admit there’s a fundamental disconnect between the current Republican powerpimps and actual conservatism. You know, fiscal caution. Limiting governmental interference in the lives of citizens. Shrinking the deficit. Not playing Big Brother in the lucrative religion business. You demonstrably don’t care about truth, or character or responsibility.

Play the victim all you want. Cry about message board meanies and the liberal press. Pick and repeat the neocon lie-du-jour as loudly and as often as you want. I don’t care because I lost respect for a whole lot of you. The GOP ain’t my party and it can splinter apart from the inside. Go ahead, force moderate Republicans right out of the party in favor of the loud, vicious fringe.

The flagrant crap rabid party-before-county right wingers vomit reflects only on you. Oh, everybody has to live with the noise and fallout. But I will never in the world understand your blind stupidity insisting if you yell loud enough, attack enough, cry “Victim!” often enough then people won’t notice you’re full of shit.

[lissener]

@Robot_Arm

That’s out of line, lissener. I like Jodi’s request that we can be better than this.

I think Scylla’s OP is without merit, but I can say that without adding an insult.

Dude, what’re you, new? It’s what we do. I take my cues from Scylla.

[VinylTurnip]

@Scylla

Over the years, I’ve come to think of you affectionately… like I do that dog.

Likewise, I’m sure, have we come to love the regular spectacle of you licking your own balls and jabbing your wet nose into the redolent ass-cracks of your closest peers.

[Scylla]

@GIGObuster

In a message board whose motto is to “fight ignorance” seeing a VP candidate that supports teaching creationism in schools .

In point of fact, that’s been debunked as another one of the smear campaign lies. You got a quote from her from a reputable source, or a link to a piece of legislation she endorsed supporting that?