None of the armchair psychoanalyzing of this individual has been intended as sweeping generalities about all self-mortifiers, or all religious people, or all gay people; yet somehow all the ruffled feathers have assumed that they are. We are reacting to the details of this specific individual’s particulars. Those that come in here and get all offended on behalf of religious people who practice similar acts for different reasons are entirely missing the point.
I fully understand and even admire people who are honestly dedicated to their religion, even to such “extremes” as self mortification. I fully understand that there are people who can practice such acts and NOT succumb to the “sin of pride.” None of my speculative psychoanalysis–a parlor game–have meant to suggest anything in general about any other person than this unfortunate Fortunato dude.
Then it appears to me that the only thing making the cilice different from the cutting is that one is supported by a religion you believe in, and the other is not.
It seems hard for you to imagine that there are people who really do think that deliberately making your life hard or painful is stupid, but here we are. I don’t care if your religion told you to do it, these actions make no more sense than cutting.
I’ve really got to hand it to the person who came up with this idea. It must be an awesome power to get people to hurt themselves because you told them to, and get them to believe that they don’t deserve a pain free existence. Why bother to enslave men when you can get them to enslave themselves?
She died from cardiac failure due to malnutrition; during the war she restricted her diet to what she imagined the most downtrodden people in Occupied France had to live on, i.e. next to nothing.
People use all manner of things to focus on their faith and to express their devotion to it–from Jesus fish and bumper stickers and the Lord’s Prayer afghans to occasional fasting and marking their heads with ashes.
How is wrapping a metal circlet around your thigh any more sanctimonous or deserving than a WWJD rubber bracelet?
IMO, this guy is all show and no go. Easy to spout talk of difficulties and suffering when his basic needs are not only filled, but the filling is taken for granted. Easy to “dedicate” yourself to a practice that to me sounds very like sublimated sexual release, all in the Name of God. :rolleyes:
There are alot of monks (and nuns) who do good, needful, honest work among the poor and suffering (I include those who have much materially, but little spiritually or emotionally in the suffering category), but this guy’s practice seems to me to be just so much posturing. “look at me suffer!” he seems to be saying, quite proudly.
And look–he’s an intellectual snob as well! Hope he finds some enlightenment in Oscar Wilde’s sad story–there’s more for this guy to learn there, than in playing medieval dress up every day.
I agree with catsix -much of the cutting that goes on, is NOT suicidal, nor is it to gain attention. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have the sanction and tacit approval of a 1000+ year old entrenched religion, so it’s not looked at indulgently.*Of course, one could say that the Catholic church doesn’t approve of women doing this at all (our job is to have babies, lots and lots of babies), but since I don’t know the number of women involved in Opus Die, oops, Dei, I can’t say for sure…
*I dont’ approve of cutting. I think that people who do it, need to find different ways to articulate their pain and needs, but that’s another thread.
Besides, the “suffering” thing is bullshit, because he’s in control of it. He can take off the cilice at any time. He doesn’t have to even put it on that day if he doesn’t feel like it. And even if he’s 100% on wearing it the full two hours each and every day, it’s still bullshit because he knows that the pain is only limited to two hours worth.
Listen, there was a time about 4 ago when I couldn’t move without literally screaming in pain.* Nobody knew what was wrong with me, so nobody knew how long it would last. I was definitely one of “the suffering.” If you had told me that some jackass was wearing a dog collar on his leg for two hours a day so that he could feel “solidarity” with me, I would have laughed my excruciating ass off. Going “owie owie my leg hurts” for two hours a day has nothing to do with being terrified that you’re going to have to pee soon, because peeing means moving and moving is torture.
Meanwhile, I would have been pissed that he was self-righteously spending 14 hours a week playing at suffering when he could have been doing something useful, like vacuuming my house. Or rather, somebody else’s house. I’m very fortunate that I have wonderful friends and family who all pitched in and helped us through the crisis. Many people aren’t so lucky. As so many posters above me have said, Mr. Opus Dei could spend that 14 hours a week actually doing something to ease suffering instead of sitting around engaging in spiritual masturbation.
He reminds me of those trust-fund hippies who think they know what it’s like to be poor because they sleep on a threadbare futon and subsist on rice and beans. But they’re chewing that rice and beans with teeth made perfect by ten thousand dollars worth of orthodonture, and sleeping on that futon with bodies made strong by childhoods filled with every advantage that money can buy. Meanwhile they know they can go back to the country club any time they want. :rolleyes:
*FWIW, it was a separated pelvis, and I’m much better now, thanks.
Agreed. And much religious self-chastisement is not for attention. But when you announce in the NYTimes, and wear shorts to work specifically to show everyone the marks it doesn’t leave, there’s more than a little attention whoring going on (speculatively, of course). Dude’s a bit of an exhibitionist, you ask me; there’s more than a little pridefulness going on here.
What I found funny about the editorial was that he admitted to wearing the cilice and not having sex, but reassured us he wasn’t wierd because he didn’t wear a robe.
Y’know, some of the latter posts have really helped me nail down my own “what’s wrong with this picture” reaction. And it is that he comes across as advertising his piety.
Myself having no emotional or visceral or moral objection to the notion of voluntary self-denial or self-mortification, I CAN respect someone who wears a cilice or performs a severe fast. But these acts of self-discipline should help the person exercise and build up their own spiritual character, by making the effort to try and think of God (or whatever their spiritual goal is) above the discomfort; they’re not ends in and of themselves, and Jesus himself warned his followers to not make a big deal and dole of it in public.
(Those slamming him with the totally antagonistic reactions should pause to think that he may be quite pleased with that, as now he has that to add to the list of self-inflicted “sufferings”)
Would it have been better PR to use a spokesman who, like the majority of OD followers, is NOT a Numerary? Very likely; I mean, it’s rather obvious that when you wan to assure the public that you’re NOT bizarre, you’re better off coming across as a vanilla, picket-fence-and-2.6-kids, golf-on-Saturdays CPA, who just happens to be extremely devoted to the church and its mission. But I suspect those members do not have the same access to the Times Op-Ed page.
See, this is why I like that thing somewhere in the Bible about how “the greatest of these is Charity,” or something. The point being that acts on behalf of *others *are more, what, holy or whatever. What this guy is doing is prideful masturbation that’s helping no one at all, not even him, really.
This guy should find some kind of service to others that makes him suffer, and he should keep it to himself.
Anyone seen Song of Bernadette? Jennifer Jones as Bernadette, a young French girl who sees a vision of the Virgin Mary. The “eople” believe her, of course, but the church does not. One old nun is particulary bitter toward her, and torments Bernadette when she joins the convent. Finally she explodes in anger one day, telling Bernadette that SHE, the older nun, has suffered and prayed all her life, and God chooses to show a holy vision to some stupid young girl, who doesn’t know the meaning of suffering? The nerve! Then one day, Bernadette falls ill, and as she lies dying, the old nun discovers that Bernadette has been suffering (IIRC) some kind of bone cancer, of the most excruciating kind, for most of her life, but she’s never made a peep of complaint. (Plot summary from memory; may be highly innacurate.)
Yeah, because it’s pretty much firmly established by real evidence and logic that (a) there is such a thing as spiritual enlightenment, and (b) denial of physical pleasure gets you there.
Catholic self-flagellants? Weren’t these the guys that went around during the plagues torturing and killing Jews and telling everyone they poisoned the wells? Yup a long venerable tradition. Of being off their nut.
Exactly. He might as well wear a billboard that says, “lookit me!”
:rolleyes:
And to another post: the Greatest of these is Love, not charity. But think about it for a minute–if you love your neighbor as yourself, charity should be assumed to be happening.
As for the self discipline–I’m all for it. I also try to be mindful of the difference between want and need. It’s easy in our embarassement of riches world to not be mindful or to think that poverty is a lack of a cell phone or TV etc. But this time limited wearing of a non-hazardous collar of sorts just doesn’t do it for me. It flunks the sincerity test, as does the Discipline–which plenty of people pay really good money for from hookers and other types. :rolleyes: Besides, me beating up myself doesn’t do much to improve anyone’s situation. It seems self indulgent to me–the opposite of self denial, which is its intended purpose.
You’ll pardon me, I’m sure, for not putting too much stock in your assessment of another’s holiness. Stick to bullshit reviews of bad movies; it’s your strength.
I’m not seeing a big difference between this guy and a cutter either.
A cutter cuts for comfort. Often they find the pressures of life unbearable.
He hurts himself because he finds American consumer culture unbearable.
This isn’t the case of “I need to experience suffering because my life is so good, and I’m so filled with the spirit, that unless I hurt myself, I don’t know how to suffer and can’t get closer to God.” This is “I find the pressure of life difficult, so I hurt myself - but mask it as a religious experience so it becomes acceptable.” That is what fasting is about - at least for those of us with food. That is what giving up television for ent is about. Its about making a sacrifice, being disciplined, learning about yourself - not hiding from yourself.
He and Opus Dei seem made for each other. Next time I meet someone who admits to cutting, I’ll suggest they pass it off as a religious affectation - that way it will be acceptable.
This is less a critique of Opus Dei than a critique of religious asceticism in general. You seem to be trotting out the old right-wingers’ canard: “If you care about the poor so much, why aren’t you in Ethipoia helping them?” Some people are cut out to be missionaries; some are cut out to be lit professors.
Bear in mind that this guy was living this life for years, and only made it public when information about his group was popularized. So you can’t really say he’s trying to get you to look at him. He’s trying to correct disinformation. It is disinformation, too. Opus Dei does not murder people. They give the Church’s validity to people and governments that murder and rape the clergy and the laity. They don’t believe in charity, because they believe that God has “called” the poor to suffer, which is a great gift in their view. If the guy’s in OD he is a whackjob, but he’s not a closeted BDSM gay diva. At least, not necessarily.
lissener
You are formally invited to this thread in the pit started by Colibri. Lissener’s obnoxious behavior in GQ
We hope you will be able to attend and clarify matters.
Jim {Sorry for the intrusion, lissener’s Email is not listed}
Hm. I wasn’t aware that they were different translations of the same passage. Having recently heard “the greatest of these is charity” version in an old movie, I didn’t of course just assume it was a mistranslation.
Google nets 27,100 hits for the “charity” version, but 162,000 for the “love” version.