Zion, could you please elaborate

Great Debates
1

It’s getting hard to follow your point of view in the Why do so many folks hate gays? thread. So I want to ask you some questions here where we can concentrate. I won’t argue theology with you; I’m sure you know 1,000 times more about the Bible than I do.

You said that as an atheist that I am a “fool”. I’ll take that not as an insult, but as an assertion that I have chosen from ignorance.

I wish to dispute that point. I was baptised a Catholic, and was a practicing Quaker for many years. I have (long ago, it’s true) studied the Bible as literature, and we worked our way through the highlights of both the Old and New Testaments. Many of my family are very serious Christians, including an uncle who’s an Episcopal Priest.

I have made a very clear, conscious and rational decision that Christianty as a religion is rationally indefensible.

You claim that “A very angry man could not attain peace is his life without God. A depressed person would not know true joy without God, no matter what drugs he was on.” I myself have come to terms with both my anger and depression. Do you have any basis, other than adherence to a non-rational superstition, that I am not truly peaceful and happy?

You claim that homosexuality is wrong because it is forbidden by your religion. Why should anyone who is not a Christian care in the least about that? Since I’ve already explicitly rejected your premises, any argument from those premises is irrelevant and meaningless.

Since you “disapprove” of homosexuality, what form does that disapproval take? Do you just purse your lips and sit back in the smug knowlege that he’s going to Hell and you’re not? Do you think homosexuality should be criminialized? Do you think homosexuals should have to give up ordinary civil rights and be denied full participation in society? Again, if so, do you have any rational basis other than adherence to a millenia-old fantasy?

I’m posting this in GD because I think I can demolish your ideas without any reference at all to your personal character (for which, actually, I have a degree of admiration).

Note: I’m asking Zion to this debate because he seems representative of a particular set of theistic arguments. I don’t mean to exclude anyone who either shares or refutes this set of beliefs.

Dr. Crane! Your glockenspiel has come to life!

2

yeah i agree with a lot of what you say. if you do not subscribe to my beliefs, that is your decision, and i may not be able to, but i am supposed to try, to change them. for example, if you are homosexual it is my duty as a christian to tell you what the bible says about homosexuality. however, if you do not try to change your ways ( i know it may not be possible but its just an example ), you are taking the chance that i am wrong in beleiveing in the bible. you are betting your eternal soul on it. if i am right, you will be appropriately punished, as you are still under god’s jurisdiction. if you are right, then you die just like i do. I have nothing to lose. you have everything to lose. this is why it is practical to believe in christ :wink:

“Hey Marge did you know they have the Internet on computers now?”

“Mmmm, memo…”

3

andyroo: You are presenting Pascal’s Wager in yet another form. As a rational proposition the Wager has been extensively refuted: Pascal’s Wager

I also invite you to Kiss Hank’s Ass (no, it’s not an insult, it’s the title of the essay.)

Dr. Crane! Your glockenspiel has come to life!

4

Sorry, not quite my intent to bring that up again although looking back, I totally repeated that philosophy. O.K. I was a little sarcastic in my last sentance when I said it was practical… blah blah. My intent (that i did not develop well) was that as a Christian it is my duty to inform you of what you are doing wrong. I may or may not hold a grude against you because of your shortcomings, but i will tell you what will (according to my beliefs) happen to you in the end.

Example: The bible, according to the best of my knowledge (let’s not get into alternate interpretations just yet) says homosexuality is wrong. I am required by my faith to tell a homosexual person this fact. He may or may not choose to act on this (again homosexualtiy is not always a matter of choice i understand this), but I will not discriminate on him because of this. Some people DO discriminate based on these facts.

However, there are supposed to be differences between laws of heaven and laws of earth. The bible says that all transgressions against a neighbor will result in said transgression being applied to transgressor (example: eye for eye) however, on earth this is a bad idea (the bible backs this up, don’t have an exact quote sorry). THERE IS, BY THE BIBLE’S OWN AUTHORITY, SUPPOSED TO BE SEPARATION OF HEAVENLY AND EARTHLY LAW. I cannot stress this enough. Some chrisitans believe because gayness is against heaveanly law, it should be against earthy law too. Obviously this is inhumane and, in my opinon, should not be practiced. Leave it to God to make this punishment, please.

“Hey Marge did you know they have the Internet on computers now?”

“Mmmm, memo…”

5

But why is it relevant that your belief system prohibits such behavior? Why do you think that we (e.g. atheists and homosexuals) care what some mythical being thinks of our behavior?

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

6

I certainly appreciate what you say later in your post about non-discrimination and separation of heavenly and earthly law. But with reference to the above; what will it take to convince you and your brethren that we gay people have been informed of your belief in this matter, and with all possible respect, request that you shut up about it?

7

Well, sure, but once you’ve made the decision to approach the problem totally rationally, you essentially decided to reject Christianity before you started. In other words, your decision was based upon your religion. But I respect that.

rocks

8

What religion would that be?

9

Do we have to go through all that"Atheism is a religion because they believe there isn’t a God" crap again? Please, people-before you do so, do a search on the word Atheist or Atheism and read what we have already said on the matter repeatedly. It is much less effort for you to look it up, then it is for us to go through that mess again.
Thank you.

Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.

10

Otto, I think you’re just going to have to resign yourself to the fact that some people don’t have an “off” switch on certain subjects. It could just as well be abortion, soft-money contributions, cattle mutilations, or Hillary Rodham Clinton, as homosexuality.

Also, part of the trouble is, the Bible commands Christians to “go into all the world and preach the Gospel”, and a distressingly large proportion of Christians are unable to separate the main event, the “Good News” of Christ’s death and resurrection, from the side-show of homosexuality. Or abortion. Or inerrancy. Or eschatology. Or Pentecostalism. Or whether divorced people should be allowed to remarry. Or who is allowed to receive communion. Or the issue of whether baptism should be “sprinkling” or “dunking”. Or which day of the week to hold worship services. Or…

I’m going to have to stop now, I’m getting a headache. But you can see, you’re in good company, along with all those abortionists and divorced people and and people who don’t speak in tongues and churches who don’t realize that we’re supposed to be worshiping on Saturday instead of Sunday and folks who think that sprinkling an infant’s head counts as baptism. :smiley: (what’s the matter with those people, don’t they read the BIBLE?!)

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

11

Notthemama said:

“Also, part of the trouble is, the Bible commands Christians to “go into all the world and preach the Gospel”, and a distressingly large proportion of Christians are unable to separate the main event, the “Good News” of Christ’s death and resurrection, from the side-show of homosexuality. Or abortion. Or inerrancy. Or eschatology. Or Pentecostalism. Or whether divorced people should be allowed to remarry. Or who is allowed to receive communion. Or the issue of whether baptism should be “sprinkling” or “dunking”. Or which day of the week to hold worship services. Or…”

Please don’t judge Christians on the actions of a select few. We beleive that you will be punished after death if you sin. Our God requires us to make an effort to save you. Being turned down once would be enough for me, personally. Don’t confuse all of us with Jehovah’s Witness’s who use leech tactics. Not all Christians do that. We just want to help.

“Hey Marge did you know they have the Internet on computers now?”

“Mmmm, memo…”

12

Really? Even if it were a close friend? If you truly thought someone you cared about was going to burn forever, you’d just let it go after the first time?

DO you know any JWs? Please try to avoid the offensive generalizations.

-andros-

13

I think that andy is jumping the gun a little bit. As a Christian I do take to heart the Great Commission (“Go into all the world…”) However, one of the basic tenets of Christianity is that we all have a complete need of God’s mercy and grace in order to overcome our many shortcomings. In other words, pointing out to non-Christians that they need to clean up is premature when, in fact, what they need is to come to God and receive his mercy. It is very frustrating to see fellow Christians put this cart before the horse. Especially when one realizes that we Christians still struggle with sin even though we have the Holy Spirit to guide us.

14

The essence of Christianity is redemption and salvation through grace. Those who would call themselves “Christian”, then attempt to impose their form of legalism are those who just don’t get it.

::

15

What I don’t get is the part about how you’re instantly saved and your sins forgiven if you accept Jesus into your heart, blah, blah, blah. So what’s to stop people from doing all sorts of horrible things on earth, then on their deathbed asking for Jesus and being forgiven and let in heaven? What happens to all the bad people that are already dead, and the priest says, God, jesus, forgive him for his sins and let him in heaven?
I dunno. I don’t think I wanna hang out in eterntity with all those mean people.

A girl

16

Well, so far as I’m concerned, Christianity is kindergarten level spirituality. But that doesn’t matter. My opinion, as far as anyone else is concerned, doesn’t matter. And that’s one of the essential points of freedom. If you try to convert someone, no matter how pure your intentions are, it’s the equivalent of insult. You’re telling him that his ideas aren’t as good as yours. Besides, if God didn’t want homosexuals, he’d change them himself. Ignorance is bliss. Whereas faith falls just short.

“I am homelier! Homelier than thou!”-Vince, from: Commonly Known Vincisms And Vincenomers

17

andyroo010 wrote:

You mean “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? :wink:

18

Ok here we go…

andros- yes I DO know some Jehovah’s Witnesses and they are extremely nice and caring people… and extremely zealous in their techniques. If you are an unbeliever, they will latch on to you. It is their belief that one must try to save someone from hell at all costs. So I wan not being degrading, but the essence of Jehovah Witnessing is to go out and convert at all costs. And with the friend thing, you must find a balance between what is comfortable for the friend and your goal of conversion. This varies for different people. Some people (many JWs are an example) believe in a convert-at-all costs philosophy. Others do absolutely nothing and feel that it would be imposing on their friend to preach their own faith.

mountain man- you are 100% right and I agree with you whole-heartedly when you say the basis of the Great Commission was on the “Jesus as savior” element, not on smaller things such as homosexuality, etc. I was using homosexualtiy as an example only. Good man.

a girl- I do believe this is unfair. Jesus taught this with a parable, to summarize:

A man owned a vinyard. Early in the morning he hired a man to help him all day. In the afternoon he hired another man to work for the rest of the day. Finally as the day drew to a close, he hired a last man to work. All three were paid the same wages. The first man complained. “Sir, I was with you the whole day, should I not be paid more?” he said. The owner replied, “When I hired you, you knew your payment. Why do you wish for more now? Would you begrudge the other man his wages?”

The moral is, do not try to take away the reward that others have earned, even if you have worked longer for it. Murderers who find Christ on their deathbeds have not had the benefit of living a good life in Christ. That is your reward if you join early.

CB- Again, I agree with you pretty much on this one. I was using lawlessness as an example only. A christian should not be irritating or preaching. I am not perfect, nor do I pretend to be. I should share in my own experiences when witnessing. When I try to be a witness for God I AM NOT TO ACT ABOVE THE PERSON WHO I AM TRYING TO CONVERT. That is a HUGE rule that i have maybe not followed in this thread. Sorry.

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“Hey Marge did you know they have the Internet on computers now?”

“Mmmm, memo…”

19

Freak Freely- By the same reasoning, God would not have created human beings as human beings are inherently sinners. Also, when you call Christianity a kindergarden level belief I hope you know how many people you insult. Some of the most brilliant people in the world are Christian Theologians. (some of the total assholes are too, I concede)

tracer- not really sure if you are accusing me of being judgmental or not. well if you did, I can see where you got it from and I apologize. But yes, I refuse to judge on any matters such as homosexuality. It is over my head, and personally I see nothing wrong with it, except that it conflicts with my faith. I leave the judging to God.
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“Hey Marge did you know they have the Internet on computers now?”

“Mmmm, memo…”

20

CalifBoomer:

Damn straight. That’s a righteous comment and sums up the attitude of every Christian who’s company I enjoy.

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.