OK, so since you acknowledge that homosexuality is (in your opinion sometimes) not a choice, what do those people do? If homosexuality is not a choice, then how can it be a sin?
I’ve never heard a Christian from this point of view before.
Esprix
However, there are supposed to be differences between laws of heaven and laws of earth. The bible says that all transgressions against a neighbor will result in said transgression being applied to transgressor (example: eye for eye) however, on earth this is a bad idea (the bible backs this up, don’t have an exact quote sorry). THERE IS, BY THE BIBLE’S OWN AUTHORITY, SUPPOSED TO BE SEPARATION OF HEAVENLY AND EARTHLY LAW. I cannot stress this enough. Some chrisitans believe because gayness is against heaveanly law, it should be against earthy law too. Obviously this is inhumane and, in my opinon, should not be practiced. Leave it to God to make this punishment, please.
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My take on this is the following. We are all born with a natural tendency to sin. My personal inclinations might include lying, procrastinating (not necessarily a sin for everyone, but for me it is a particular stumbling block), cheating, stealing, gluttony, etc.
There is evidence that the children of alcoholics have a tendency to alcoholism. (No, I am NOT saying that homosexuality are comparable. I am just discussing sin tendencies.) I watch my daughters do the same things (that are, in fact, wrong) that I did when I was a child. (My parents are greatly amused at this).
In as much as I must eschew procrastination, lying, gluttony, and my natural sexual urges (at least outside of marriage), a Christian could ask you to put off your natural sexual urges, and be consistent when doing so.
I grant you that many Christians view the homosexual act as worse than other sins. This, I believe, is unsupportable.
So celibacy is the only answer? Or should I go ahead and marry a woman to try to “right” myself?
This, of course, goes completely against my belief that God gave us sexuality, along with the joy and love that go with it, as a gift, not an obstacle to be overcome.
First, if you wish to persue it their is a Gay Christian over at LBMB. (If that link fails, just go to www.leftbehind.com, click on the message boards, and search for his handle.) His handle is STRUGGLINGCHRISTIAN. I checked his profile and he does have an available email address. When the topic comes up (and it does come up) he(?) points people to a website that disputes the traditional interpretation of the commonly quoted verses (e.g., Romans 1).
If one disputes their interpretation and accepts that everything that the OT and NT traditionally includes belongs, then it would seem that celibacy is the only answer.
The apostle Paul, at one time in his life, was single.
Verse 8 shows that Paul was single at the time he wrote this. It is supposed that the reason he would prefer that people remain single is so that they could better dedicate their lives to the Kingdom of God. You will note that here Paul concedes that sex is necessary to a marriage. Other scripture suggests (e.g., Song of Solomon) that sex, within the context of marriage, is not just acceptable but very good.
Again, I wish to make it clear: if the homosexual act is sin, it is no worse than my own sin.
Tinker
P.S. If you do a search on Polycarp, you will find his take on the interpretation of those verses. I am sorry, I don’t know where.
The site that STRUGGLING CHRISTIAN uses at LBMB is www.whosoever.org . I know this because I told him about it, among other sites.
I would suggest that anyone who wishes to see the minority views that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality click here, as it gives a blow-by-blow account of all of the verses that Christians use to show that homosexuality is a sin and refutes them.
Mind you, I am not endorsing these views as accurate, or mirroring my own in any way. However, since there are so many different ways to interpret scripture (Bob Jones University and the KKK, anyone?), I think just to dismiss these folks as “wrong” is… well, wrong. When I gave this (and other) sites to STRUGGLING CHRISTIAN, I told him the same thing.
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two weeks, two days, 17 hours, 50 minutes and 51 seconds.
669 cigarettes not smoked, saving $83.72.
Life saved: 2 days, 7 hours, 45 minutes.
Esprix: Why is it relevant to you on what basis Christians judge you wrong? As I noted in your other thread, since they define their own belief as morally correct, their opinion is by definition self-righteous, and, as far as I care, irrelevant.
Personally, I don’t give a rat’s ass about someone’s personal opinion of me. If they wish to establish a rational moral authority with which they judge my beliefs or actions, I’m willing to argue the point. But if they just try to evaluate my beliefs and actions according to their subjective beliefs, they are wasting my time and annoying me with irrelevancy.
And this is the basic question I’m putting to Zion. Why is your own subjective opinion about other people’s behavior relevant? Why are you bringing it up at all?
Personally, I have my own opinions about people who believe in religion. Unless someone asks me about it directly, or pisses me off by asserting the “eternal truth” of their own subjective beliefs while deprecating mine, I keep my mouth shut because my opinion of their religious belief is not relevant.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
No you may not ask him that. Your abstention from what you subjectively believe to be sins does not give you even the smallest justification to ask someone else to adhere to your subjective judgements.
To elevate your own preferences to a definition of right and wrong is the essence of self-righteousness, regardless of how well you live up to those internal preferences.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Firstly, who says I don’t go there as it is? Secondly, BTDT. I will check out the cite you reference - sounds interesting. Frankly, I don’t have a problem agreeing that the Bible clearly condemns homosexual acts, but that’s another discussion entirely.
Well, the Pope agrees. It’s ok to be gay, you just can’t do those gay things.
Oh yes, I’ve heard all about Paul. He’s ruined it for the rest of us! (And yes, I’m sure you’ve heard that some theorize Paul was gay himself.)
At least you’re humble. Good show. And thanks. It’s a shame more people might not agree with you.
See, my thinking here is, this could go on for months. The interp that makes the most sense to me says, yes, fine, the bible says it’s a sin. The bible also says that women are property, slavery is ok, sacrifice a dove to the priest during your menstrual cycle, marry within the 12 tribes of Isreal, ad nauseum. Why do we not obey these any longer, but still condemn homosexuality?
The author (Wink, IIRC) winds up by saying that, really, it’s irrelevant - Jesus had a love ethic, not a sex ethic. I’m comfortable with that.
[ul][li]I seek to learn about other people’s points of view.[/li][li]I like the back-and-forth of a good debate (note I’m talking about Christians here, not fundies or Jeezers).[/li][li]As they maintain at least a stronger hold on societal attitudes than I do (my perception), I need to know what they’re thinking, as what they do directly impacts my well-being.[/li][li]I’m a rabble-rouser. ;)[/ul][/li]
There are probably other reasons.
It’s not a matter of caring what someone thinks about me because I’m going to be upset at them because of it, it’s more a matter of both self-interest and self-growth. I learn by listening (at least in this case).
ZION: In the related thread “Why do people hate gays” I have refuted your sciptural anti-gay evidence WITH scripture. Please read & answer my queries there.
Real life is keeping me from answering the questions in this thread. I’ll get on it though, when I can. Don’t want SingleDad to think I’m ignoring him.
SingleDad,
Please re-read my previous post. First, I hope you will agree that what I said was to be taken in the context of Christianity. I in no way suggested that Christians ought to dictate in the political arena what Gays must or must not do. Second, I agree that my wording was a tad ambiguous. In this context, the may-phrase meant that a Christian might consistently interpret that God expects the Gay-Christian to abstain.
SingleDad,
I recognize that this is a hot topic and a sensitive issue. Please reconsider your interpretation of my words. I did not elevate my preferences. I gave what I thought to be a consistent interpretation of scripture. Note also that while I gave this interpretation, I made an honest attempt to provide alternative interpretations (with Satan’s help - thanks). Even Esprix considered my post humble. (I say even since, if I am correct that you are not gay, he has a more personal stake in the issue.)
Sorry, I didn’t mean to appear to be criticizing you personally, I was using “you” in the generic sense. Even as a formalist and rationalist, I find the third person “one cannot…” too stuffy even for my taste.
I had assumed you were posing a hypothetical question and was answering in kind. You personally seem to be a rational guy without obnoxious self-righteousness. Your hypotetical though, was a perfect example that self-righteousness differs from hypocrisy, and I was pointing that out.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Thank you for the clarification. I admire your posting style and respect your opinions. Even though we have not conversed previously, it would be distressing to me to have posted in such a way as to call down your ire.
Something else I thought of, SingleDad. When a Christian attempts to point out to me that I (or, for that matter, anyone) has sinned/is sinning, they truly believe that they are doing it for our better welfare. They believe that since we have not found Christ, we will go to Hell for eternity. Their Christian love (either dictated to them or something that they truly feel) commands them to save us from that awful, terrible, unthinkable fate. They proselytize because they love us and care about our eternal souls.
Do I blame them for this? No. But don’t wear out your welcome, either - some choices must be made, not forced upon us through coersion.
(And yes, I’m sure you’ve heard that some theorize Paul was gay himself.)