SingleDad wrote:
“A Compilation of Overpressure and Underpressure Measurements at Strategic Sampling Points in the Real World, and Their Implications as to Whether Real Life Sucks or Blows”.
I’m sure this study will appear in Nature any time now. 
Andyroo010 - are you an Adam and Eve believer or a ‘the bible’s full of metaphors’ believer?
I only ask because I’m sure that the Bible says that God created man in his own image - and if you’re not an “Adam and Eve”-er then God must be bisexual. QED.
“incognuity” should be a word!
I’d like some Christian opinion (backed up by the Bible, not by your own belief, if you don’t mind.)
I understand that whereas Jews are bound by the Mosaic laws (all 600-odd), they consider non-Jews only to be bound by the 7 Noahite laws.
I always figured that not being a Christian, the Bible doesn’t apply to me in the same way that not being a Frenchman, the laws of France don’t apply to me. Is there a biblical position on this?
tracer: You owe me for a new keyboard! Your comment caused coffee to shoot out my nose! 
Can I steal that for my new sig?
Esprix:
a) I don’t buy that and b) my welfare is none of their business. Last I checked I was an adult and perfectly competent to see to my own welfare.
If I feel the need for someone’s advice, I will ask for it. If I choose to look for meaning and purpose, and I ask a Christian to help me find it, he then has free rein to impress his moral values on me. But until I ask, him tellling me that he knows what my own welfare better than I do is presumptous, arrogant, obnoxious and self-righteous.
Well, I certainly don’t buy it, either, but in their eyes, because you have not accepted Christ, you really aren’t capable of maintaining your own welfare, and it’s up to them to point this out to you, as one begins to teach a child about the world, something about which he has not clue one. Sure, I don’t like being looked at like a child, but I understand where they’re coming from, as misguided as I think it is.
Yes, please, ask them - they’d be more than willing to help you out! Again, I don’t disagree with you, but they sure don’t look at it that way. I have a Chick Tract if you’d like to do some further reading…
Esprix
Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy!
Esprix: If it is okay for a Christian to witness to somebody because they honestly care for their well-being, then is it similarly okay for me, as a self defense expert, to “witness” to people about the realities of self defense because I know the terrible fate that will befall them in a violent encounter? Is it alright for me to do this even though they haven’t asked for any self defense advice? Of course not. If somebody asks me about violent crime and self defense I am always willing to help out … but I don’t try to cram it down people’s throat.
The reality is that Christians have been commanded to do something from a source that they take purely on faith and hence is a subjective source. To further complicate things Christians preach their interpretation of the source, which adds another layer of subjectivity to boot.
N.B. that failure to follow the command itself isn’t even a sin in any event, so there is no cause to follow this command on the basis of self-preservation.
From the outside viewpoint, I agree completely. It is presumptious at best to assume moral superiority and then try to force feed your corrections to those who “err.”
If, however, I put myself into the shoes of the fanatic Christian, it doesn’t look so bad. (Please understand I am not a theist. This is for illustration only!) If I know (and the fanatics don’t believe, they know) that Jesus is the only way to save one’s immortal soul, and I also know that the master of the universe wants me to save all the souls I can, why should I let your discomfort dissuade me? I certainly wouldn’t care if you yelled at me or hated me for pulling someone from the path of a speeding truck, and that’s just their mortal life! Why should I care if I ruffle feathers in attempting to save someone’s eternal life? By golly I’m only out to save you from Satan!
Of course, that’s the sort of thinking that gives us abortion doctor murders and bombs on planes, but it is valid in the fanatic’s universe, assuming that the person is a true believer and not someone in the religion biz for profit, power, or personal aggrandizement. Personally, I love it when someone tries to Christianize me, because they usually don’t really know much about their faith, and aren’t ready for anyone to throw the enormous holes in their convictions back at them, and watching them squirm and swallow paradoxes in defense of their beliefs is fun, even if they always do back into the same corners.
All of this is not directed at the average, well adjusted theists in the crowd, who may mention their beliefs but don’t try wearing you down by metaphorically beating you over the head with the Bible.
Cogito ergo sum…I think.
I just want to say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. It has remained, for the most part, straightforward & honest withut falling into left field.
I have my own observations and thoughts that take so many views expressed here and twirls them all together. Instead of trying to express or sum those up, I just wanted to send out a positive vibe to the posters here. Just so you all know at least one observer is getting some good information & perspectives from here, as well as helping her continually re-examine her own ideas on the subject of Christianity & Homosexuality.
Thanks!
“I can never give a ‘yes’ of a ‘no.’ I don’t believe everything in life can be settled by a monosyllable” Betty Smith
ENFP Prayer: Dear God, please help me keep my mind on one - oh look a bird! - thing at a time
I’ve been a reverend only a short time, and though I am familiar with the Bible as a whole, my philosophical studies are still progressing.
As far as I have been able to tell, the Bible is a text held as a Divine Order, by a buncy of extremely fallible creatures.
The one thing I’ve always stressed to my congregation is flexibility. There are certain things in the Bible that don’t apply to the modern world, simply b/c there are certain issues that no longer apply, such as marrying into the tribes of Israel.
I, for one, do not consider homosexuality deviant or sin. I’m sure Saul of Tarsus did, and maybe Jesus did to, but that was another time, and another nation. At the time, given the limited number of Christians, proceation was a good way to add numbers to the flock. Homosexuality bears no heirs, and therefore, doesn’t further the cause of Christ, according to Paul anyway.
Similarly, pork wasn’t a good meat to eat, since the animal was often diseased and was a common source of deathly illness. So, the Bible says, “don’t eat pork, it is a filthy animal, and you will die b/c God wills it.”
The New Testament was written by men, and it is bound to contain the various views of the men who wrote it. Free will, our God given gift, allows us to choose whether or not to listen.
Ok, I’ll try and answer the OP.
SingleDad: I want to use some Scripture first, and that might give you an idea of why I said the things I said about atheists being fools, and about you not truly knowing happiness.
Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
Prov. 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He make your paths straight
Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ.
Paul, speaking to the Christians in Rome: Romans 35-39 - Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?..No, in all things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present life nor the furture, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God, that is Jesus Christ our Lord.
The above passage from Romans is, IMO, one of the most powerfull passages in the Bible. And it conveys that Christians have just that…power. We are more than conqerors through Jesus. There is unmatched security in that. There is joy in that. There is freedom in that.
As for Biblical reference on God making us truly happy, just read Psalms. The whole book. Most importantly though, I think Paul summed it all up best in Philippians when he said, “For me, to live, is Christ.” There is no life outside of Jesus.
I can say that with full confidence, because I know what life is like without God. I have seen countless lives changed by His power. And I have personal experience with it also. There was a time when God was not a part of my life…He was but a whisper in me. Those were the worst days of my life, without a doubt.
It’s one thing to read these words on a computer screen, and try and believe them. But it’s another thing to see a person who was torn, broken, bitter, dead…and see them literaly transformed into a new creation, a new person who is vibrant, and…alive.
I’ll split this post into two parts. I’ll discuss homosexuality in my next post.
SingleDad:
People don’t go to hell because they are gay, or murderers, or liars, or because they do whatever…etc…etc. People go to hell because they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior. Being gay is not a one way ticket to hell, as many might believe.
Hmmm, I think you might have to clarify. I’m gonna say no though, because I can’t think of a reason to punish gays in that way.
I do not believe they should be allowed to marry, or have children. (This was discussed at length in the “Ethics on Homosexuality” thread)
How can you demolish my ideas? I believe what I believe based on the Bible, and the teachings of the Holy Spirit, who lives in me. True, I have also learned from human teachers, pastors, my parents…etc. But, all of what they say must line up with the Word, and the Spirit.
Before starting to approach the problem. Any problem dealing with faith is not going to be solved rationally.
rocks
Perhaps I didn’t make it clear in my previous posts, but I’m not talking about witnessing, nor do I think witnessing is acceptable. I do, however, feel you have the right to state your belief to me if you see me acting in an unsafe manner. Similarly, when a Christian finds out I am gay, I fully expect and completely understand when they point out to me that I am sinning and am going to Hell. Obviously, in both cases, if I then at that point clearly state I’m not interested in hearing your point of view, then it should stop there; going beyond that is witnessing.
My original point was not whether Christians should witness or not, but rather that I understand why they do. People get angry with them because they feel they are shoving their religion down their throats (which they are), but I understand that they’re doing it because they think they’re saving my soul, which they see as an act of love. I don’t approve, but I understand.
Esprix
Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy!
You are calling me a “fool”, a pejoritive term. This term is factually inaccurate on an objective level (I have a demontrably high intelligence). To thus judge me, on the basis of your own arbitrary beliefs is the definition of self-righteousness. To call me unhappy is preposterous: Again, judging my happiness solely on the basis of your own beliefs is self-righteous.
I’m not totally up on Christian beliefs, but I do believe that self-righteousness is a an actual sin. To fail to recognize this sin, correct it, and thus show your true repentance cannot be a good thing, according to your own ideals. Regardless, on an objective level self-righteousness is obnoxious because it intrudes into my right of free thought, and it presumes you are better than I am.
Don’t argue that you don’t think you’re better than me, you’re just trying to help me. You have called me a fool and unhappy without objective evidence to that fact. You are claiming by implication that you are better able to judge my intelligence and psychology than I am.
For the record, I have very consciously and with the full power of my intellect rejected the Christian God. I am guilty of the most monstrous sin possible under your religion. If you argue that anyone deserves the loss of freedom or civil rights because of sin against your religion, if you have a shred of intellectual and moral honesty, you will come after me first. You’ll certainly have to get through me if you want to impose your superstitious beliefs by force of law on a homosexual or any other citizen.
Secondly, in my review of the homosexual threads, I didn’t see any reason for denying homosexuals the right to marry other than it conflicts with your superstitious beliefs. Give me one objective reason I should elevate your beliefs higher than my own. I will give you a good reason you should elevate my beliefs: Mine are based on the reality of the evidence of my senses, not on made up millennia-old fictions.
I’m being hard on your religion here only because you have asserted that it applies to objective reality. I have no basis to quarrel with your own internal beliefs, but when you attempt to use them to justify deprecation and oppression, I will most definitely consider the source. I can’t demolish your religion, that’s part your own internal psychology. But I can demolish the idea that your religion has even the smallest relevance to any objective question, and show that your attempt to do so is self-righteous, obnoxious, and demonstrates an attitude of completely undeserved superiority.
I will defer my Christian colleagues on whether your attitude displays sinfulness and if your adherence to self-righteousness displays hypocrisy, inexusable ignorance of your own theology, or merely a lack of intelligence.
SingleDad:
I won’t argue with you that I’m better than you. I’ll just come flat out and say that I am not better than you. Period. I know this from Romans. “There is none righteous, no not one.”
I did not call you a fool. The Scriptures call you a fool.
And you call me self-righteous.
Statements like this just give me no reason to even continue. All I believe in is millenia-old mumbo-jumbo, right? Besides, you believed in God, and for some reason have now rejected that He even exists. How are my words going to affect you? They aren’t.
If Polycarp sees this thread, I know he will be able to understand where I’m coming from. And he can do a heck of a lot better job of explaining things than I can.
Asserting my intelligence is merely descriptive. Asserting that I’m smarter than you is comparative. I may be accurate or inaccurate, but I’m not calling myself morally superior to you because of my intelligence. Thus I am not exhibiting self-righteous behavior.
When you say, “I believe in God,” I say, “good for you!” When you say, “You are a fool for not believing in my God,” I say, “come out here, say it to my face and justify yourself.” You can’t do so.
Next time you self-righteously insult my intelligence and call me a fool, do it in the Pit where I can respond in kind. Otherwise I have to characterize your nature as trollish: You are not interested in making a point, you just want to get my dander up.
I don’t think you’re a fool because you believe in God. I think you display an obnoxious, socially unacceptable, self-righteous arrogant attitude by asserting your belief is inherently superior to mine. I suggest you show some humility and admit that your answer is right for you, but that you are incompetent to judge someone else’s answers.
Unless you do so, or are willing to rationally defend your assertions, I’m not interested in your point of view. It’s irrelevant.
Psalm 14:1
The fool(1) says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools(1) despise wisdom and discipline.
(1) fool in Hebrew here denotes one who is morally deficient. “Morally deficient” can mean “without God.”
Proverbs 10 8-14
The wise in heart accept commands, but a chattering fool comes to ruin.
The man of integrity walks securely, but he who takes crooked paths will be found out.
He who winks maliciously causes grief, and a chattering fool comes to ruin.
The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, but violence overwhelms the mouth of the wicked.
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.
Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin.
Proverbs 10:18
He who conceals his hatred has lying lips, and whoever spreads slander is a fool.
Proverbs 10:23
A fool finds pleasure in evil conduct, but a man of understanding delights in wisdom.
Isaiah 32:6
For the fool speaks folly, his mind is busy with evil: He practices ungodliness and spreads error concerning the LORD; the hungry he leaves empty and from the thirsty he withholds water.
2 Cor 11:17
In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
You are an intelligent man, SingleDad. I know that your IQ is most likely much higher than mine, and you obviously are much more learned than I am. I’m not saying this to kiss up to you now. I’m saying this, because it’s simply true.
I think we can look at the Scriptures, and agree that what they are saying is, “It is foolish not to believe in God.” I am not twisting the Scripture here, right? Also, it is safe to say that after reading Proverbs, we can say that true wisdom, only comes from God.
Now, these things are written in the Word, SingleDad. Whether you or I attest to them or not, does not change the validity of the Scripture, the truth of the Word. Right now, one of us believes God’s Word to be true. It does not make one of us one better than the other.
I am truly sorry for coming across as judgemental, and self-righteous. Please accept my apology. Allow me to quote you another passage, so maybe you can futher understand where I’m coming from.
This is what the Lord says: “Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands me and knows me, that I am the Lord, who excersises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the Lord. Jeremiah 9:23-24
No one has room to boast about earthly things. We can only boast in God, and His Son Jesus Christ, and the wisdom, power, and strength that He gives us. Paul quotes that passage twice in I Corinthians. He also knew that nothing else mattered but Jesus.
Adam
(My emphasis.)
I have no reason to think that you’re being intentionally self-righteous, but I have to agree with SingleDad here. The Bible is the truth for you; it is not the truth for him. The very fact that you refer to the Bible as “the truth” implies that simply because you believe in its validity and he doesn’t, you are privy to “the truth,” and he is somehow less for not having realized that yet. I know you don’t believe any one person to be better than another, but “truth” is a powerful word. You may believe the Bible and Christianity are the truth for you, but without that caveat, you sound like you’re a father correcting an errant child, and the tone cannot be anything but self-righteous and holier-than-thou.
Personally, I just nod and smile a lot.
Esprix