Opus Dei Apologist Writes OpEd, Lemur's Mind Boggles

[Talon_Karrde]

Well, considering that the type of love that’s being talked about is not an emotion but actions (I think), then charity fits too. I like it better with love just because nowadays charity is thought of as something you give money to, and not something you do yourself.

You all convinced me. I guess maybe he does have some problems.

Theologically, I think that inflicting suffering on yourself (unless it’s really to accomplish something) is wrong, and Paul did a good job of explaining that with the “body of Christ” metaphor. If one part suffers, so does the rest.

[lissener]

[QUOTE=Talon Karrde]
Well, considering that the type of love that’s being talked about is not an emotion but actions (I think), then charity fits too. I like it better with love just because nowadays charity is thought of as something you give money to, and not something you do yourself.

You all convinced me. I guess maybe he does have some problems.

Theologically, I think that inflicting suffering on yourself (unless it’s really to accomplish something) is wrong, and Paul did a good job of explaining that with the “body of Christ” metaphor. If one part suffers, so does the rest.
[/QUOTE]
In Flannery O’Connor, characters who devote their lives to charity do it incidentally, not piously. They just do what they need to about whatever happens in front of them. And they’re often destroyed by their own acts of charity, even after being warned against it. There’s something about that, merely doing what’s right because that’s what people do, and disregarding the consequences to yourself, that is my, for lack of a better way of putting it, model of what’s holy.

Another frequent O’Connor character is the god-haunted; the reluctant prophet. In Wise Blood, Haze Motes feels the call to god, but he’s angry at god and wants nothing to do with it. To show who’s boss, he defiantly founds a church called the Church of Christ Without Christ, and puts sharp pebbles in his shoes and wraps barbed wire around his waist as a way to mortify these urges toward god.

Gothic, OK. But the whole idea of self mortification is purty dang gothic. This Fortunato seems to be doing it as a lark, in comparison. He’s not haunted enough for it to make sense to me; he’s just too businesslike about it. Or something. He does not convince me.

[lissener]

Feels kinda hijacky, but I wanted to quote a bit anyway:
[

When Robert Hughes wrote poet-priest Gerard Manley Hopkins for advice on how he might learn to believe, Hopkins responded simply: “Give alms.” Flannery O’Connor took notice of this advice, echoing Hopkins’s counsel, she carried on a similar correspondence with the young Alfred Corn. If what the church teaches isn’t true, she told Corn, it should be rejected, no matter what consolations it provides. But faith doesn’t require a leap into the absurd. “I find it reasonable to believe, even though these beliefs are beyond reason.” She urged Corn to satisfy his demand for reason, but to “remember that charity is beyond reason, and that God can be known through charity.”

](http://www.highbeam.com/library/docfree.asp?DOCID=1G1:110361276&ctrlInfo=Round20%3AMode20b%3ADocG%3AResult&ao= )

[Smeghead]

[QUOTE=saoirse]

Bear in mind that this guy was living this life for years, and only made it public when information about his group was popularized. So you can’t really say he’s trying to get you to look at him. He’s trying to correct disinformation. It is disinformation, too. Opus Dei does not murder people.
[/QUOTE]

That was my impression too. It’s not like he just dropped in out of the clear blue sky yelling, “LOOK AT ME!!” No, the Da Vinci Crap stuff has been getting metric assloads of media coverage lately, and he wanted to present his side of the picture. You could almost say that he was, oh, I don’t know, fighting ignorance?

[Guinastasia]

[QUOTE=lissener]
See, this is why I like that thing somewhere in the Bible about how “the greatest of these is Charity,” or something. The point being that acts on behalf of *others *are more, what, holy or whatever. What this guy is doing is prideful masturbation that’s helping no one at all, not even him, really.

This guy should find some kind of service to others that makes him suffer, and he should keep it to himself.

Anyone seen Song of Bernadette? Jennifer Jones as Bernadette, a young French girl who sees a vision of the Virgin Mary. The “eople” believe her, of course, but the church does not. One old nun is particulary bitter toward her, and torments Bernadette when she joins the convent. Finally she explodes in anger one day, telling Bernadette that SHE, the older nun, has suffered and prayed all her life, and God chooses to show a holy vision to some stupid young girl, who doesn’t know the meaning of suffering? The nerve! Then one day, Bernadette falls ill, and as she lies dying, the old nun discovers that Bernadette has been suffering (IIRC) some kind of bone cancer, of the most excruciating kind, for most of her life, but she’s never made a peep of complaint. (Plot summary from memory; may be highly innacurate.)

This Fortunato guy is no Bernadette.
[/QUOTE]

So THAT’S what what she died of! Damn, I saw that movie twice in grade school-once when I was six, and again when I was 10. Huh. I wondered why she died so damned young. (Hey, I was ten, what did I know?) Oh, and she had tuberculosis according to Wiki, not cancer.

Yeah, prideful or spiritual masturbation would be a good term for it. Dude, you don’t have to go out of your way to be uncomfortable. Just live a simple life-a plain, hard army cot, basic clothes, no fancy meals, etc. Why go out of your way to torture yourself? It accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Why not just hang a sign around your neck that says “I’m a nice guy who gives to charities and cuddles puppies and helps old ladies across the street?”

After all, Jesus said it wasn’t the self-martyrs who made a big display of their suffering and piety who got to Heaven. It was the people who went out and helped others, comforting the sick and dying, feeding the hungry, taking care of the poor and down trodden, who were invited in.

[Talon_Karrde]

Thanks for the quotes. I think I’ll remember the name Flannery O’Connor and buy one of her books sometime.
The literary reference that comes to my mind is some of Louise Erdrich’s books, where she has a character who is nun who tortures herself as much as possible, to the extent of only allowing herself to use the bathroom once a day, never bathing, and all kinds of crazy stuff.

@Guinastasia

Yeah, prideful or spiritual masturbation would be a good term for it. Dude, you don’t have to go out of your way to be uncomfortable. Just live a simple life-a plain, hard army cot, basic clothes, no fancy meals, etc. Why go out of your way to torture yourself? It accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Why not just hang a sign around your neck that says “I’m a nice guy who gives to charities and cuddles puppies and helps old ladies across the street?”

After all, Jesus said it wasn’t the self-martyrs who made a big display of their suffering and piety who got to Heaven. It was the people who went out and helped others, comforting the sick and dying, feeding the hungry, taking care of the poor and down trodden, who were invited in.

For a while I had this romantic notion of joining some monastery and giving a vow of poverty, but I think this thread has shattered that.
Also, self-inflicted suffering isn’t always just about looking good to others, but is also a way to assuage the guilt from living in a self-centered society.

Fasting shouldn’t be lumped in with some of the other stuff though. Fasting isn’t supposed to be about wallowing in your suffering, but about allowing God to sustain you. It probably doesn’t make sense to someone who’s not religious.

[Guinastasia]

Another problem with the cilice-couldn’t it end up being dangerous, or at least, a health hazard? I can’t see wearing that over time would be good for one’s circulation, and over a long period of time, those little spikes, even if they don’t break the skin, would probably cause permanent groves in your skin, which would be ideal for injury and possibly infection.

And what if you’re in an accident, while you’re wearing it, and it cuts into your skin even deeper? What about diabetics in the order? Surely they don’t have to wear it! What about older members, who have poor circulation?

Dude, take cold showers if you’re that hard up. Much easier, probably better for you, and in the summer time, very refreshing.

(However, I’m probably not alone in thinking-if it didn’t have the little prongs, and was made out of silver with little beads, it’d make a purdy piece of jewelry!)