O'Reilly to Iraq: Drop dead, we've got to re-elect Bush!

  1. I agree.

  2. It was a bad assumption, of course, and they had plenty of warning about this.

But that aside, they didn’t invite us in; we invited us in. Consequently, we’ve taken on a responsibility to the Iraqi people that is not negated by the invalidity of the assumption.

  1. A lot of that surely has to do with our response. We didn’t need to be in Fallujah in the first place; I can add some links about our policy turnabout there that led to the deaths of last week later if it’s germane. But once it happened, we could have simply cordoned off the town, and let it stew in its own juices, rather than force our way back in.

Similarly, after last Sunday’s uprising by al-Sadr’s supporters, we could have backed off and sent him a message saying, “we’ll release your aide and let you re-open your newspaper if you have your militia stand down.” Instead, we went in with guns blazing.

In these exchanges, we seem to have lost sight of the Last Remaining Rationale for the war: that we’re here to liberate Iraq and bring a better day to its people. We can’t outgun them, so we have to stay out of battles we can’t win (in the broader sense as well as the immediate sense), even if it means backing down sometimes.

  1. There’s a continuum of possibilities for Iraq after we pull out. Western-style democracy is off the menu, I agree. But just because of that, should be abandon them to civil war and chaos, if we can help bring about a better outcome than that?

There are many things worse than dictators, and civil disorder is among them. ISTM our last, best chance is to put the ball in Sistani’s lap, to listen to him, do what he says, and thereby promote a reasonably moderate Shi’ite-controlled Iraq. With any luck, the Shi’ites will at least be able to hold most of Iraq together as a nation. But what we don’t have any right to do if we can prevent it is to let Iraq turn into a failed state, a set of lines on the map that no longer mean anything. Not only would that leave the Iraqis much worse off than they were under Saddam, but failed states (as pretty much everyone in the field, including Condi, acknowledge) are terrorist incubators. To let that happen would leave us in greater danger than we were two years ago.

So even if we can’t bring democracy to Iraq, we’ve still got business there that we can’t shirk, for their benefit and for our own.

And to shirk our obligations to Iraq simply because we see the election here as more important shows a truly warped value system.


On preview, I see a lot of new comments, too many to respond to here. But one historical correction: LBJ didn’t pull out of Vietnam. If he had, Nixon wouldn’t have still been bombing the place in December 1972.

But this is an interesting turnabout, as yojimbo points out: we antiwar types used to be accused by the righties around here (and in the larger world) about not caring about the Iraqis. (But we had plenty of justification: first, Iraq was then one nation of many that we didn’t have to invade, and second, occupation was going to be a bitch, and might result in a worse outcome than Saddam. Now, Iraq is the one nation we have invaded, which obligates us to a much greater degree to care about them.) Funny how the righties are now defending O’Reilly’s suggestion that we bail out. Don’t you guys care about Iraqis?

Sure, I’d like to see an orderly withdrawal: like Kerry said long ago, how do you ask someone to be the last one to die for a mistake? But if there’s still a realistic chance that we can leave someone in control who can stay in control, it will avert the worst outcomes, and we’re obligated to see it through at least that far.

Hey it was done before to the poor fuckers in the south. Daddy Bush told these people to rise up and the US would have their back, it didn’t. They got massacred and then his son uses their graves as a after the fact “justification” for Dubya Dubya II.

What are you talking about?

In all seriousness, I am unaware of any of bombings that may have occurred after 1991 and before 2003. The U.S. perhaps bombed some missle/artillery sites in Northern Iraq during the mid-90s – I know some American planes were fired upon during that time.

But other than that, I am at a loss.

Fuck, you’re right.

This is really weird. I was stuck in traffic yesterday and I had O’Reilly on the radio. He spent the whole time talking about how it was time, essentially, to kill everyone over in Iraq. I mean, literally, kill every Iraqi who opposes our presence and bomb as many mosques as it takes. I don’t think I’m mischaracterizing what he said, because he said it thirty times. He also said that if we don’t get things cleaned up in Iraq, Bush wouldn’t have a chance in the election.

This “Memo” appears to be the exact opposite. I guess he’s playing to different audiences?

I tend to be conservative, but that doesn’t mean I align myslef with Bush. ** If you are a conservative, you should loathe the operation in Iraq **. Taking Iraq for what it is, it’s a on-going mess that should have never started in the first place. It’s wasted resources.

All the money and resources could have been poured into a serious campaign against militant Islam, the people who want all Americans dead no matter what, at all costs without rhyme/reason. We can’t bargain away our status of infidel!!

Here we sit in Iraq, with a great chance of actually creating a whole new country that could fester with militant Islam, when countries that continue to be breeding grounds for militant Islam get a pass!"

Hey, GOP, you can prefer the conservative approach to economics, society and foreign policy AND still get in here and condem the decision to waste our war effort in Iraq while our mortal enemy - militant Islam - gets a pass.

Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia: Breeding grounds for those who want all Americans D- E- A- D, and we got our boys in Iraq?

At this point, we need to be **brutally critical of any fucknut who does not know who the enemy is, as that enemy builds his army, rallies his troops, gathers resources and seeks the destruction of the US. At this point, the only thing you can say is that Bush had the balls to do something, but that what he chose to do was just about the dumbest fucking thing going. **

YES, Slam Bush, **and be prepared when the next President - a democrat - gets the U.S.’ ass kicked all over the globe. Right now we have the poison that is Bush and Rumsfeld and their wasted fucking IRaq effort, but we won’t have the guranteed fucking saviour if Kerry gets in. SOMEBODY BETTER FIGURE OUT WHO THIS FUCKING WAR IS AGAINST.

KNOW THE ENEMY AND DEAL WITH THEM FOR GOD’S SAKE.**

An article I found on Collounsbury’s Livejournal:

My rough translation (Gobear, not M. Lounsbury):
A young and unemployed population, a low standard of living, political frustrations, anger against the Western occupation, an uncertain future: all the conditions are met for a Shi’ite explosion in Iraq. The March 28th closing by the Anglo-American coalition the Al-Hawza newspaper, accused of inciting anti-American violence, will have played the role of a spark in a barrel of gunpowder.

<snip>

More than 60% of the active population is unemployed in a society where more than 70 percent of the inhabitants are less than 20 years old, explains Hassan al-Ani, professor of political science at the University of Baghdad, cited yesterday by AFP. The youth are ready to take up anything that can return to them their dignity and give them a feeling of power.

I was under the impression that we’ve had Iraq under sanctions since Dubya Dubya One (love that term!) and that we’ve imposed a no-fly zone and that we’ve occasionally enforced that with strategic bombings. And while those bombings were on military targets, over one million Iraqi citizens have perished as a result.

Perhaps I’m wrong, and perhaps I’ve been misinformed, in which case I will happily eat crow – I wish to hell that that never happened, afterall.

Can someone set me straight on this please?

As even people who practice bad birth control will admit, pulling out won’t protect you from consequences if you’ve already shot your wad.

He’s going down, he’s going down, GWBush is going down! Yay!

::does happy dance::
Oh man, when Bill O’Reilly says that the Republican President’s big military endeavor --the one he rammed through over the vociferous objections of so many people and is therefore seen as his personal work – is a disaster, it’s truly a fucking disaster. If there were any remaining way to put a positive spin on the War in Iraq as a patriotically good and successful venture, you know he’d be spinning it that way.

I want you to pay attention to what you said. Then I want you to read about the history of the US. Then I want you to realize how many years it took for us to become the world’s first and largest Democracy. Then I want you to compare that timeline to Iraq’s timeline.

2 years vs. 200 years +. Do you see why things aren’t going well? The ludicrous idea that we can bring democracy to a nation mere years after running in, deposing a dictator, and bombing the shit out of the country bothers me to say the least.

All we’ve done thus far is stirred up more negative feelings of the US. We’ll hand Iraq over to the people. They’ll destroy, exile, kill or run out the interim government. Then the religious clerics and their respective factions will have at each other. After a civil war or peaceful agreement(either one could happen at this point), one or both will assume control of the country and it will become a non-secular nation with a hard-on for the west.

Vicious cycle, please repeat yourself…

Sam

I highly doubt that anything close to a million Iraqis have died in the handfull of random military target bombing that occured in the 90’s. AFAIK, those were strategic bombings aimed at specific targets, not like Operation: Slack-Jaw, err, Operation: Shock and Awe. Or was that Operation: Just blow billions on military technology overnight ?

Sam

tdn I think you’re mixing up the deaths that have been attributed to the sanctions by some people to with the deaths from enforcing the no-fly zone.

Perhaps this is it. IIRC, the no-fly zone was largely unpopulated save for scattered Iraqi surface-to-air batteries. Perhaps there were Kurds in the area, as well.

Probably.

So who are the “some people”, and how many deaths have been correctly attributed to said sanctions?

I believe that the “million” figure has been applied to the people who died because Desert Storm destroyed the infrastructure so that clean water was scarce and that the subsequent sanctions prevented rebuilding and the Oil for Food program was subverted by Hussein to build more palaces. The actual bombings of radar and surface to air missile sites probably resulted in fewer than 200 deaths in twelve years.

I do not know whether the “million” figure has any evidence to support it, but it is not attributed to bombings between the two wars.

A quick google gave me http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index0.php?page=1136829263.htm

Lots of mention of UNICEF and other UN bodies. Example

Or as per usual.

What tomndebb said.

AFAIK, this is unknowable.

There’s also this: you can look at one side of the coin and say that “Saddam could’ve ended sanctions anytime by capitulating.” You can also look at the other side of the coin and say “The UN could’ve ended sanctions at anytime by fiat.”

So two opposing entities had the power to end the sanctions, yet neither chose to do so. Who’s at fault? Unfortunately, there are no obvious answers when dealing with Iraq.

I have to take at least a little bit of issue with this. Obviously the ruler of a country, caring about his people, should be the one to give in. Unfortunately, if the UN gave in, I do believe Hussein would have used that to his advantage more and more often.

“I need more money/trade/freedom. I know, starve my people until the UN gives me what I want!”

Knowing what we know about Hussein, he wouldn’t have blinked at the opportunity.

That’s for damned sure.

Sam

Thanks for the info.

I think my point still stands, though – put a country into a war, then sanctions, then starvation, then another war – rightly or wrongly, you’re going to have to expect her citizens to fight back. Blame it all on Saddam if you want, but I’d bet that a large nuber of Iraqis blame the US.