I have a friend who has a friend who was told that because she is a woman she is not supposed to say the Kadish. Further she was told that g_d was not listening to her because a woman saying the Kadish is considered a sin.
Is there something in the Talmud that shows that a woman is not to say the Kadish?
Women are indeed not supposed to say Kaddish.
Kadish is a form of leading communal prayer. Only men are obligated to pray with the Minyan, and only those obligated in doing a certain thing are allowed to lead others in doing that. Women are optionally allowed to pray with the Minyan, but not to lead the service, since their level of obligation is less than that of the people she’d be leading.
That said, I’m not sure that it would actually be sinful, since G-d’s name is not actually said within the Kaddish. It’s certainly against tradition, which we Orthodox do not take lightly.
?? The first line (English) is ‘Exalted and sanctified is G-d’s great name’; what am I missing? I’m not being snarky, I’m goyische and it’s not obvious to me. (I only know the Mourner’s Kaddish.)
But the Tetragrammaton, or four letter name of God, doesn’t appear in the kaddish. Jewish issues relating to the “name of God” usually refer to that, not to some other collection of words used to denote God (which you do find in the kiddush).
The tetragrammaton doesn’t appear in any modern Jewish prayers, and AFAIK, hasn’t since the days of the 2nd temple.
Also, somewhat on topic, in most sects of Judaism women can join the minyan, but don’t count towards your ten required people. So you can have 100 women in a group, and nine men, but that group still can’t pray. My sister was on an El Al flight from Tel Aviv to Toronto, and it was delayed on the tarmac for a couple of hours. Someone in my sis’s section suggested praying to kill the time, and sis had to switch seats with someone to accomodate the minyan. She didn’t count.
Did you ever read Davidel’s Harp? This was a pretty important plot point.
Conservative and Reform Jews would certainly say that a woman can say Kaddish. The great majority of Conservative Jews would count women towards a minyan; all Reform Jews would.
nitpick Davita’s Harp. That’s the story that made me want to learn the Kaddish.
[Taking a deep breath so Chaim Potok adoration hijack is narrowly avoided…]
I do hope your friend’s friend managed to say it with a little more sensitivity and tact than that. Being mean to people who are grieving is a sin, too.
It does appear in some parts of the Jewish liturgy- the Shema, for example. We don’t attempt to pronounce it as it was pronounced by the High Priest in the Temple, though.
That’s not true in most Conservative or Reform congregations. Women do count toward a minyan in those.
…and, MannyL, if your friend wants to say kaddish, she would be very welcomed at any Conservative or Reform synagogue. My synagogue, for example, is about as close to Orthodox as one can come aside from being gender egalitarian.
A more literal translation would be “… His great name”. That translator chose to avoid ambiguity, and tell you Who that pronoun refers to. But the original text has the pronoun (His) rather than a proper name (G-d).
This is not a unanimous view. Some do allow women to say it. For example, see the opinion of Rabbi Eliyahu Henkin, quoted at this site. (It’s about halfway down; search on “Henkin” to find it more easily.)
The original Aramaic is “… sh’mei raba.” Shem means “name,” and the -ei suffix means “his” – Hebrew and Aramaic are gender-positive languages, and have no way to express a neutral gender. “Rabba” means “great.” Compare with the name for the 7th day of Sukkot, Hoshanah Rabbah, “The Great Hoshanah.” (So named for the seven prayers recited on that day, where the refrain is “Hosha na” – “help us.”)
And here’s an article by Joel Wolowelsky (who’s currently dean of faculty at the Yeshiva of Flatbush, and writes a lot about the role of women in Judaism), arguing that women saying Kaddish is halachically acceptable (with certain limitations), that it’s traditionally been allowed, and that the flat dismissal of it by a lot of Orthodox poskim today is more motivated by public policy then halacha.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n3_v44/ai_17422962/pg_1
He ends with the conclusion:
Thanks so much for that article. One can derive from both the halakha and minhag (custom) cited there that women are permitted to say kaddish, and required if there is no surviving son – It seems that anyone who prevents them is preventing kiddush ha-shem (sanctifying God’s name).
When I have heard people discuss this issue, I have heard every reason that the author so clearly refutes.
Seconded. My Conservative MIL recently said Kaddish for her mother.
I see a lot of banter, but no direct answer to your question. Not suppose to say the Kaddish? To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing explicit about this prayer…no more explicit than any other prayer. I do not believe women are banned from saying any prayer. The only issue is that women do not count towards a minyan (i.e. a quarum of ten) when group prayer is required…even if the group is specifically meeting to mourn for the loss of a woman’s own father or husband! The orthodox ways are utterly ridiculous in this regard. In the eyes of the orthodox, women are only good for birthing and housekeeping. Now, the real question is…where is this written? Did g-d say this, or just the rabbis to keep the women in line…and the chicken soup flowing? :dubious: - Jinx
I don’t think, Jinx, that there is any final answer because there are differences of opinion within the Orthodox groups. The Conservative and Reform groups are unanimous in permitting a woman to say kaddish. (I am actually glad to know that there are Orthodox groups that permitte women to say kaddish.)
The issue is that women are subject to the physiological requirements of menstruation, pregnancy, and nursing, and therefore in Judaism are not bound by religious requirements for organized, scheduled prayer. In other words, given a baby who wants/needs to be fed RIGHT NOW, a mother should feed the baby instead of rushing off to shul for services.
From there, I think, arose the concept that women don’t count towards a minyan, and so weren’t allowed to take part in prayer. It seems inappropriate to me, the claim that “a woman isn’t bound by the requirement to fulfil a mitzvah, therefore a woman is not permitted to fulfil the mitzvah.” (But my background is egalitarian Conservative.)
Keeve and Captain Amazing, thank you for educating me - I had not been aware that there are opinions that allow it.
Jinx:
They’re not banned from saying it, but (with some possible exceptions, as Keeve et al have cited) they can’t lead men in prayer that men are obligated in.
The Rabbis interpret G-d’s word (i.e., the Torah) as indicating that women are not obligated in commandments with a time requirement, and also as indicating that the level of divine service of one who is obligated to do something doing that thing is greater than the level of divine service of one who is not obligated to do something doing that thing. Put the two together, and the logical result is that one who is not obligated cannot lead one who is obligated in that particular observance.