Orientals, Europeans, Indians, Africans,,,

I find the above statement old fashioned or odd but certainly not insulting, demeaning or anything else. Would I label someone using the above term racist – no. Would I ask them to call me white – no. Would I think anything except that was a little out of the ordinary – no.

Okay, some people with Far East ancestry prefer the word Asian to Oriental. I’m happy to comply on a personal level and have generally used the word Asia and Asian. I mean, I don’t think I have ever said I live in the Far East/Asia/Orient, I might as well say I live on Planet Earth. Usually these days I just say I live in Shanghai and hope most people knows that is a city in China.

A thing that confuses me on this thread, is that one could freely interchange the term “oriental” and “asian” [especially if you include “asiatic” as a form of "asia] without changing the meaning. I haven’t really seen anything to change or even challenge my mind that “Oriental” should be considered a pejorative term except that there some people seem to think there are some negative associations. I will grant some validity to the negative association view if there is a significant number of people within this group that feel strongly about it. Otherwise, it seems to me to be an individual and personal preference rather than an issue that requires a movement to raise the collective consciousness in the US.

[By the way, does someone have a link to an Asian group that advocates such a change in word usage? My proxy is down and the geocites site linked is blocked.]

China Guy, I did a search of your previous posts. I am sure that you are a very intelligent person so I don’t understand why you are continuing to have problems understanding this.

As SuaSponte stated so eloquently. There are denotations, and connotations. Asian and Oriental have similar denotations, but different connotations. They do not have the exact same meaning. Asian means from the continent of Asia. Oriental means someone from the East. Here in America, Oriental has a bad connotation. Dangerosa hit it on the nail. It is typically used by people who have so little interest in other cultures, it’s all the same to them. They can’t even deign to name us by the name of the continent. They call us Orientals. People from the East. The type of person who is surprised to find out that Chinese and Japanese people are two different cultures.

A word is doesn’t have to be consider derogatory by the majority of the target group to be consider bad. It is derogatory in the way it is used. As a white person living in China, I thought you would be more understanding. Let’s have an example. The word ‘Yankee’. A rather innocous word that no longer has a bad connotation, unless it is used by someone who still refers to the Civil War as the “War of Northern Aggression”. You get my idea, let’s not hijack the thread. Most Americans don’t consider themselve Yankees, or consider it a derogatory term. Say we have another diplomatic crisis with China. Anti-American Chinese Students start chanting “Yankees go home”. They come up to you and yell “Yankee go home”. Now they have taken a term that means an inhabitant of the Northern United States to mean 'American Imperialist;. Hell, you might not even be American. You might German, but it doesn’t matter to them. Now whether you are offend or not, the word is being used in a derogatory manner. Now they have labeled you without really caring whether you’re an American or you agree with it’s policies. They have stripped you of your individuality and lump you in with a larger, hated group. A word is derogatory when it is used out of malice or ignorance. This may not be the best example, but hopefully it will help you understand.

I am a American of Korean descent. If you know me on a personal level, you would know that I am culturally Korean like…George Bush is Korean. Meaning I do not know how to speak the language, or know much about its history. Yet I am proud to be a Korean. But living as a Korean, I am constantly lumped in as an Oriental, Asian or Chinese. When I explain that I am Korean, more often than not the next question is, “What is the difference?”. Does it bother me? Not really. I consider myself first and foremost as Michael Soh. Also most of time, it is asked out of innocent ignorance. But the term Oriental, like I have said previously has a denotation that is outdated, and a connotation that is bad.

America has fought three major land wars in Asia. Asian companys make the majority of consumer electronics in your homes. People like milroyj still do not consider me an American. Can you please make a little effort in learning about the different cultures that make up Asia, instead of still referring to us as Orientals

I prefer not to refer to East Asians as “Orientals,” because a majority of the Korean, Chinese, Japanese and Malaysian people I’ve met dislike the term. That’s good enough for me. I don’t feel that it is my place to challenge them.

>> China Guy, I did a search of your previous posts. I am sure that you are a very intelligent person so I don’t understand why you are continuing to have problems understanding this.

I will let him speak for himself but I think most of the world and many Americans just think it is a bit childish this PC game where everybody is searching as best they can for things they can consider offensive. This is just a silly game of “Gotcha!”

I would also point out that I do not think it is healthy to be so fixated with whether other people like you or not. If you are happy with who you are and satisfied with your life and the group you belong to, I see no need to be demanding recognition all the time.

The term Quaker was originally a derogative term used to make fun of that group. They adopted it with pride and the word lost any negative connotation.

In Guangdong the term for westerners is “gwailo” which literally means “white devil”. It was clearly intended as derogatory but I have found westerners use it to refer to themselves and the word is not considered offensive (although I suppose you could use it offensively). They always get a laugh when I refer to myself as a ‘gwailo’.

Asians have no problem referring to us as “westerners” or “western people”. I see nothing wrong with that although I guess i could take offense and say “hey, don’t you include me with the French!”

Personally I find this fixation with words kind of silly. You need to take sensitivity courses because you can be racist and offensive without realizing it. I think it is just childish playing with words. Everybody is looking for reasons to be offended. This is a culture of crybabies. Well, I am offended now! Someone better do something or I’ll hold my breath until I turn purple.

And I’m not sure I get people’s insistance on not “playing the PC game.” Using a certain word brands you as either a) out of touch, b) rude, or c) a racist. Why would you want anyone to think any of these things about you? Why is it so difficult to leave a positive impression by saying Asian instead of Oriental? – It is even one less syllable.

I find PCness extremely silly. Words and terms go out of and come back into favor.

In the 50s you would be in extreme trouble calling an African-American (also a PC term), black. The preferred term was Negro or Colored.

But, ‘Colored’ is coming back. By lumping Blacks and Hispanics together as ‘People of Color’.

Oriental? Asian? All it does is describe a location on the globe and whatever is preferred now will go out of fashion at some point and the other will be back (with all of the same arguments so far posted on this thread.)

It is dumbass sweeping statements such as this that make honest dialogue impossible. MC wanted feedback as to why this such an issue. I responded. As I have stated, I don’t have that big a problem with it. How is that whining?

I admire instances where groups that have adopted terms and made it their own. ‘Queer’ is another example. I think it is great that you can joke about yourself being a ‘white devil’. If it doesn’t offend, cool. How does your personal anecdote help our discussion? I don’t consider myself an Oriental, so how do I make that term my own?

How intellectually honest are you? If a black co-worker gets angry at a nigger joke, do you tell him its just word games? Do you use the phrase, “Don’t jew me on the price”? Let me guess, you find that offensive as well. Maybe you see yourself as the arbitrator of what will and what will not be deemed offensive. Let the word go forth, that Sailor has declared the term ‘nigger’ offensive, but the term “Oriental” is semantics and Orientals are not to get offended at it’s use.

Give me a fucking break. What is the difference between a racist and a person who complains about the Political Correctness? The racist is consistant.

Oh and before you get your ass on your shoulders about the dumbass remark, remember it’s just a word game. :slight_smile:

Urban1,

Now you are just being lazy…these words don’t change that often that its hard to keep up on them, at least the common words. Either lazy or you are looking for an excuse to be rude. And there is plenty of time where both words are acceptable to most people - the PC committee doesn’t meet bi-annually, flip a switch, and start making new demands on your language usage.

It’s kind of like women. They go and get married and change their last names. A silly practice, IMHO, I’m a “maiden-namer” but, hey, their choice. But here I am expected to remember their new last names, and they get all mad at me when I insist on calling them by their maiden names…they are the ones that keep changing, why do they get mad at me? And some of them will get divorced, and change back, then remarried and change again. And they expect ME to keep them all straight? Of course they do. Because that is what they have chosen to call themselves, and it would be impolite to insist on calling them by their maiden name - or the name of the ex-husband they haven’t had for years.

I will admit that picking the right word all the time is impossible. Some Jamacian Americans doen’t like being referred to as African Americans because they don’t identify themselves as from Africa. Then there is the whole when to use Hispanic vs. Latino thing. But making the effort counts for something in the manners world - you can always claim out of touch.

BTW, thanks to those with the patience to try explain this issue. My views on Asia are extremely complex and based on an awful lot of background. People, I’m not trying to be a jerk, just to understand so I could defend such a position. After all, if someone calls my daughter an Oriental, I’d like to have some rationale for correcting their usage. When people ask what nationality my daughter is, I generally tell people on both sides of the Pacific that she is a dual Chinese-American citizen.

When I left the US in 1985 to come live in China, the word “Oriental” at least among most politicaly correct California University students was not a cause. It wasn’t even an issue. Sure times change, connotations change, so I want to be educated on why “oriental” is not only passe but also now derogatory.

For the Asian Americans posting, could you also give me a general idea of your age group (I’m 40) so I can get further context.

If you go back to basic definitions, both “oriental” and “asian” mean of or from this part of the world. Asian, as far as I’m aware, means literally from the continent of Asia but has come to include the far east. As posted earlier, the UK has a different definition. Malays, Indonesians, Japanese are all considered Asians but not of the continent of Asia. The vast majority of people in China that I run into don’t realize that my daughter is Asian if they see her alone with me. There is actually quite a debate going on in this part of the world if Australia and New Zealand are part of Asia.

archmichael: one of the favorite games among people out here and one of my least favorite is the “guess what ancestry I am?” Just about every nationality in Asia gets at least irritated if you guess wrong. It can be really tough if you don’t get their name or even worse is a tour group from the US (where dietary habits and American body language often mask non-verbal clues). Some people are easy to peg visually, others could easily be Japanese, Taiwanese, Korean or Chinese and if you say the wrong answer you do not get to pass go.

I hope the crack about “please make a little effort in learning about the different cultures that make up Asia, instead of still referring to us as Orientals” didn’t refer to me. I listed a partial pedigree earlier.

Can someone please explain how using the word “oriental” implies that you probably didn’t know that the Chinese and Japanese were two different groups of people, with a different language, culture, history, racial characteristics etc, and if you use “Asian” you know all about East Timorese? Oriental studies and languages were around acedamia a lot longer than Asian has been.

Sailor, I find gweiloh insulting as in Chinese “devil” always has a negative connotation. I don’t get my panties in a twist about it, usually don’t even comment on it but I find it insulting. Same as if a mainlander calls me a “yangguizi” or “foreign devil.” There are plenty of other terms such as “waiguoren” “laowai” and “waibing” that I find perfectly acceptable.

[quote]
It is dumbass sweeping statements such as this that make honest dialogue impossible. MC wanted feedback as to why this such an issue. I responded. As I have stated, I don’t have that big a problem with it. How is that whining?

[quote]

I have no idea why you feel I was referring to anything you said. And I never used the word ‘whine’.

I think you provide a good example. Dumbass can only be interpreted as being used with the intention to insult. I think the mods will agree with me that it does not belong here.

My point it that it is childish to look for insult and offense in words were clearly no insult or offense is meant. It is playing a game of “gotcha!”

I remember once I got into an argument at a party with this woman who was so PC and was preaching to everyone about being “sensitive” and using all the PC terms so as not to offend anyone’s sensibilities. Of course, just a while earlier she was referring to corporations as “terrorists”, republicans as “bigots” etc. So I guess she only felt the need to be sensitive to those who did not know they should be offended until people like her told them they should be offended.

Reminds me of a couple of local incidents.

One, the student of the U of MD who was punished for calling some other students “water bufaloes”. Nobody understood why but surely there was a racist insult there.

And the DC official who was fired for using the word “niggardly”. If this is not ridiculous, I don’t know what is. It just shows people have too much time and need to get a life as well as some basic education.

This is not directed to anyone in particular, just MHO

OK, coming from Ontario Canada, I’ve always used the term “Oriental” as a polite word, the impolite word being “chink,” and that’s the rule everybody else around me used too. Now I’m hearing that “oriental” is bad. Fair enough, whatever turns you on. But I just don’t understand how the word “Asian” can be nice?!?!

I have loose ties to the Middle-East, Iran to be specific, and last I heard the Middle-East was still part of Asia, yet very different from the cultures in the Far East Asia (can I use this term? I swear I don’t mean anything bad by using it). So I find it quite offensive that some folks from China, Japan, Vietnam, etc have suddenly become the owners of the term “Asian.” What about the rest of Asia? What about the folks in the Indian subcontinent, or the Middle-East? Have they just ceased to exist? Or is the rest of the world supposed to regard the entire Asian continent as a homogeneous culture?

You don’t like the term “Oriental” fine. But please don’t start calling yourselves “Asian” because you don’t represent the entire continent. And you folks in the States, please don’t start calling them “Asian-American,” not everybody from China, Japan, India, the Middle-East, etc lives in America now.

Having said that, I find this whole thing totally ridiculous. Look at the Jews, half of the world hates them and the other half has tried to exterminate them at one point or another, yet they don’t go around asking people to start calling them “Hygroku-Americans” or some new name! The same goes with the Kurds. You’re not going to make people stop hating you by changing your name. You’re just giving yourself the illusion for the couple of years it’ll take to make the new word become offensive in your own mind.

Whatever, you want to get offended by the word “Oriental” 'sup to you. Out of respect I’ll stop using it. But please don’t call yourselves “Asian” 'cause then you will be the ones offending others.

Let me start off by apologizing if I came across as being rough on you China Guy. I have a tendency to come across harsh.

No the crack about knowing cultures was not directed at you. Judging by your educational background and what I divulged about my background, you probably know more than me.

I am 29 years old. Why am I so vocal about this? I believe that people are treated the way they want to be treated. I don’t think the term should be used anymore, so I speak out against it.

As far as the game you mentioned. I think every Asian person likes to play it. I can try to give you some pointers if you want, email me personally if want some tips.

I tried to find a statistic that was on Yahoo recently, but I couldn’t find the cite. It said that most Americans thought Chinese when they saw an Asian person. I would have though Japanese, because of all the cars and consumer electronics.

Now on to Sailor. Why did I think you were referring to me. Well, you start off by quoting me, then launching into your diatribe. If you had not quoted me, I would not have taken it personally. But you did. Now common sense would state that a comment after a quote is directed at the person quoted. Now if you are saying is that it was not directed at me personally, I will take it at face value. I apologize for calling you a dumbass.

As for the use of the word ‘whine’, you are correct. You did not use the exact word whine, but you did use the words childish and crybabies. Are we to infer that you meant everything but whine. Now who is playing word games.

When I post on this board, I expect people to come to the discussion with a open mind and intellectual integrity. If I was at that party with you, I would have joined you in arguing with that woman. A woman who would call a corporation ‘terrorists’ and Republicans as ‘bigots’ is someone who is closed minded. I have had countless arguments with people like this. When they start using terms like ‘terrorist’ and ‘bigot’, you know that they are not going to change their stance. That is exactly what you did with us. You called our stance as being a crybaby and childish. You did bring our discussion to a screeching halt. Why would you change opinions and join someone you just called childish?

As for the other two incidents, it looks like we both agree. I don’t think the student should have been punished, even if he had used a real derogatory term. I think jerks have to be dealt on a person to person level.

I heard about the niggardly incident myself, and was appalled. Niggardly means someone who is miserly, and has no relation to the term ‘nigger’. I thought the person should have stuck to his guns, and not resigned.

Help me understand your point of view. Like Dangerosa stated to use such terms you must be (a) out of touch, which I don’t think you are. (b) rude, if so why are you not willing to change what you say to avoid being rude. © racist, which now I am not sure you are. Help me understand where you are coming from cause right now I don’t see it.

Nekochan (guess you’re a cat person, huh?). Quick question for you, was the word “Asian” ever used in the same context as the example you gave for “Oriental” as you grew up. If yes, what feeling is different about oriental versus asian? I guess that’s one thing that is bugging me about all this, if you want to build a case for the political incorrectness of a word, one could do it for Asian as well as Oriental.

Have to admit ignorance at never before reading Edward Said’s works, although his Orientalism: a Brief Description left me a bit baffled a few minutes ago. He wasn’t covered in my University courses. Is there a point to your quoting him?

Yes, I am a polite person and I will call people whatever they want to be called but I still think this playing with words is a silly and childish game. It is not so much that “orientals” have taken offense at the word as that the PC crowd like to be in the know of what is acceptable and tell everybody what is and what is not acceptable even to the subjects of the term.

Idiots come from all walks of life and all races. There is always some idiot who is going to find offense somewhere for any reason. Then the whole thing snowballs and we have another term which is no longer acceptable even though most of the people of the group it refers to find no offense in it.

I will call people by whatever name they want to be called but I can still think the reasons are kind of silly. I might add that if you belong to a group which feels the need to change names every few years, then maybe the problem is not with the words but with your group.

I’ll give you an example. In Spain pigs were considered unclean animals and the word for pig was considered taboo. So a new word would take its place but would soon become dirty and a new one had to be put in its place. Now Spanish has a dozen words for pig and they are all just as insulting and bad sounding because they all refer to pigs. Note that it was not even a question of not offending the subject of the noun, it was just the words themselves. Well, I am sorry but a pig by any other name does not smell any better.

I will call a garbage man “sanitation engineer” if he prefers it but I still think it is silly because we both know he is the garbage man which is not good or bad, it is just fact and words do not change facts. If I were a garbage man I’d rather get a raise than a new title.

Yes, I am respectful and I do not go around calling people dumbass even if that is what I think of them. If they want to be called “transmongolcaucasian” then that is what I will call them. But I still think they are silly by playing with words like that. That is just MHO and I do not wish to offend or irritate anybody.

People who try to find justifications like “Asian is more accurate than Oriental” are just playing games. On those grounds the term African-American would never be acceptable as it is very imprecise and confusing. And yet, there it is.

Now we have people saying you do not “own” a pet, you are its “guardian” and I have heard someone on TV refer to her dog as “canine-American”. This is beyond silly if you ask me. The fact is that America today is very caught up in these silly games. The niggardly and water buffalo examples are representative of things which happen all the time and are silly beyond belief. The climate fosters these things. Everyone is looking for an excuse to be outraged and make someone apologise.

The fact is that now we have to tiptoe around to avoid offense, the possibility of giving offense, the possibility that it might look like we might give offense or the possibility that someone might think that it may look like maybe there is a chance that someone, somewhere, might be offended.

I also recall during the LA riots, that man who was taken from his truck (Denny something??) and beaten almost to death by a black man. A helicopter TV cam was showing it live and they referred to the men who were beating him as “gentlemen”. I cannot imagine they would be called gentlemen if they were white but we have gotten to the point where you have to call blacks gentlemen even if they are killing someone lest they might take offense.

Another incident I remember was the 911 tape of an old lady who was being attacked in her home by an “African-American gentleman”. She was screaming into the phone that this “nigger” was killing her and all she was getting was a lecture from the operator. They went on like this for quite a while, the woman screaming in terror and the operator lecturing her that it is not acceptable to use the N word. No, you cannot refer to anyone as a nigger even if he is attempting to kill you and you deserve a long lecture even if it may cost you your life.

We hear every day cases that are just plain silly. Children being reprimanded for inocuous things. I think the climate has gone totally into sillyland.

In summary, this is just MHO, not in any way supposed to be representative of anything but my own opinion. Yes, I will call people by whatever name they want to be called. I also reserve the right to think it may be quite silly. Furthermore, if they become a nuisance in changing names too often and taking offense where none is meant and becoming a PITA about it I also reserve the right to tell them to go to hell and leave me alone.

By the way, I use the term “Asian” rather than “Oriental” just because it seems the most common. Porn sites also use the term Asian over any other. Just thought you’d like to know :smiley:

Reminds me of a (possibly apocryphal) quote from a vocal black student at my hubby’s old college:

“African-Americans the whole world over should unite!”

It’s funny how silly these PC rules can become. For example, “colored people” is totally out - but “people of color” is tres cool.

Now it’s time for me to pay my Verizon (formerly known as Bell Atlantic) phone bill.

Autumn

I wouldn’t dream of calling an Asian an “Oriental”. I might a rug. Or a poppy. I might, if I were writing a piece of fiction set over 50 years ago – but I’d do the same to all other ethnic groups mentioned in the story.

Who, in 2001, has a problem with dropping this 19th century colonial colloquialism in favor of the preferred ‘Asian’ just because “Oriental doesn’t sound too bad?” It does to the listener.

Y’know, I’m not often thoroughly flabbergasted by brazenly rude attitudes of Ugly Americans with bad taste, crass manners and an absence of empathy, but that one almost did it.

You forgot La Raza which was briefly popular in the 60s. In the case of Mexicans (or Mexican-Americans), I believe that they are covering up a rich and diverse cultural history by electing to be including in the Hispanic/Latino group (just who made that decision, anyway?); I’m not at all sure that there isn’t some goverment committee which meets to decide new names. :smiley:

I don’t think I am being lazy or rude. I refer to members of a group as whatever they decide they want to be called. It just seems that every day there is a new term to call people, places or things.

I think this is a point some people have been missing, or intentionally ignoring. I don’t think anyone is claiming that “Oriental” is an insult in the way that, say, “chink” is, but it is at best uncomfortably old-fashioned. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that people who insist upon using old-fashioned terms like “Oriental” probably have old-fashioned ideas about what “Oriental” people are like.

I do find it interesting that many of the same people who object to the term “African-American” (“They’ve never even been to Africa! They should be proud to be Americans!”) refuse to call people born and bred in the US just “American” or even “Asian-American”, but instead cling to the exotic “Oriental”.

Again, I’ll point out that I have always used and heard the term ‘asian’. Oriental does have a sort of ‘passe’ flavor to itbut I do not think it can be considered offensive. I hear people using terms that are regional or passe and I don’t think it’s worth making a federal case out of it. I just recently discovered that “can you get that grip?” means “can you get that suitcase?” Because of the age of the person who said it I believe it is a teerm which has long become passe. If he used the term ‘oriental’ I would just assume he meant Asian but to imply it is disrespectful in any way I think is not warranted.

I am not about to reread the entire thread but I do not believe anyone here has said that at all. I believe we are discussing terms to denote race rather than nationality. I believe we are referring to people of Asian descent whether they are Americans or not. So I think this is not a valid point.