Really ? on what basis? seriously, in this thread alone, you’ve been given information that those who are Asian consider the term ‘oriental’ to be offensive, so how can you continue to assert that it cannot be considered offensive? As has been repeated pointed out, it is up to those being identified by the term to label it offensive or not, right?
As usual, it come down to race. My thanks to the people who chimed in against the term Oriental. I will try one more attempt to explain it to the people who see this as a PC game.
Most white people will never understand what it feel like to be seen as a minority underclass. Some people will chime in that they have been a minority because you worked in a foreign country. No, that doesn’t count. Because you were there as a soldier, corporate manager or academic. You go there in a position of respect. It is never the same. There is no country that I can think of where white people have worked as the manual labor class, with all the discrimination that comes with it. That is what I am talking about. If you mess up at work, people will say, “Bob really screwed the pooch on that one”. If I mess up at work, (not all but some) people will see it as, “That chink really messed up”.
Most white people will never understand the power labels have. Honkey? Cracker? None of these have the impact of nigger or chink. Because you are the majority there will never be an effective racial slur against you. So of course an issue like ‘oriental’ is just a childish word game.
Most white people will never understand the power of stereotypes. If you make a mistake while driving, you are the moron who can’t drive. If I make a mistake while driving, see Orientals are the worst drivers.
Do you know what it feels like to never wanting to play Cowboys & Indians as a kid, because the other white kids wanted you to be Hop Sing?
Do you know what it feels like to have people come up and ask you if its true that Chinese people have rice dicks, because of a movie called “Raw”.
Do you know what it feels like to have to endure being called Long Duck Dong after “Sixteen Candles” came out?
Do you know what it feels like to speak well-enunciated English, and to have your manager do an imitation of you speaking pidgin English?
Do you know what if feels like to not tell something to another kid, but be accused of keeping an “Ancient Chinese secret, huh?”
Do you know what it feels like to have people make kung-fu noises when you pass by?
Do you know what it feels like to grow up as a kid and have less then ten people who look like you on TV?
Do you know what if feels like to see the few Asian roles on TV played by white actors with exaggerated slanty eyes, and talk like they are reading fortune cookies?
All of these things were done out of ignorance. The same sort of ignorance that says what is the big deal with ‘Oriental’. Every time you use that term, I think of the things I just listed. Are there some extremists in the PC movement? Yes. But the majority of what you call the PC movement are decent human beings who try to empathize with other people.
Thanks to you guys I have a few more to add to the list. To think that some of you liken my speaking out against ‘Oriental’ with a person who thinks a dog should be a canine-american. To think that one of you had the temerity to claim that my use of Asian is the insult to other Asians because I don’t represent all Asia.
archmichael, I think you are oversensitive or you live somewhere where stereotypes are very different. AFAIK stereotypes about Asians in America are generally positive (hard working, good students, family centered,). I have never heard that they can’t drive or anything like that.
Yours is a self-fulfilling profecy. Kids are like that all the time. They will pick on you if you are fat, thin, short, tall, wear eyeglasses, wear different clothes, have different background of any kind. So they picked on you because you are Asian. Too bad. They picked on me because I wore eyeglasses. Did I enjoy it? No. But I am not about to start a crusade to earn respect for those of us who have bad eyesight.
I think often women and minorities often bring the racial issue upon themselves. When a white guy is fired or gets a traffic ticket he may think the other guy is an Ahole but that’s it. I can tell you that living in DC I have come across blacks with a nasty attitude towards other races. Well, I deal with it and move on. But you often see people crying racism when it is not warranted.
You say if you are driving and commit an infraction people generalize to think Asians cannot drive. I think (a) this is totally unfounded and (b) goes to show why you would have a problem with any term. After you hear the term Asian enough times you will also have a problem with it because you will asociate it with the same concepts and attitudes.
People of all stripes and colors have many problems in their daily lives and in dealing with other people. Just check a few threads. We all have our shynesses and insecurities but we do not place the blame on others.
If you want to have the fuzzy feeling that everybody likes you, sorry, there is nothing in the world which everybody likes. Many people are not going to like you for whatever reasons. To accuse them all of racism is only achieving one thing which is to perpetuate the issue.
sailor, I am from DC. My best friend is Korean-American. She has described to me, and I have witnessed while in her presence, several instances very similar to those on archmichael’s list. And a few others. Perhaps it is you who is under-sensitive?
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- I have heard the term “Yankee” and “Yank” used as derogatory terms in the British press. Not that it bothered me much.
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- I have heard the term “Yankee” and “Yank” used as derogatory terms in the British press. Not that it bothered me much.
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- I suppose I would consider it odd if I heard someone refer to US Americans as “colonists”, but it wouldn’t be innaccurate, especially if they were speaking of differences between those who were decendents of colonists and those who weren’t. - MC
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- Actually to me, the most bothersome point about the British press is that they have taken to beginning sentences with the word “But”. - MC
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ruadh, I do not deny it. I have also suffered several instances where I am quite sure the nasty attitude I was getting from some DC civil employees was because I was from a race they happen to dislike. I am just saying that making every case of this into a federal one does not help any. I have seen more racism from blacks than from whites here and I think the best thing is to ignore it. Maybe I am, as you say, undersensitive. Yes, my feelings of self-worth or of worthlessness do not depend on others. I have been turned down by women, by possible employers, and by many others. I am sure in a few cases my race, ethnicity, national origin, religion or lack thereof, sex, appearance, attitudes, previous condition of servitude, etc. were factors. If I was to take all the times I have been turned down personally I would have jumped off a cliff by now. I prefer to move on and find people who do like me for whatever reasons. I also prefer the company of people who are easy going and not looking for offense. Of course, everyone has a right to be as sensitive as they want but I am now reminded of my own mother who finds offense in anything and everything and blames it on others treating her like that because she is a woman. Well, not really, what she is is overbearing and impossible to deal with. If she were a man she’d probably have gotten a few blows by now so she is probably getting away with more than a man would. My sister is the same way; I have a wonderful family.
Yup, you can choose your level of sensitivity. I have set mine on ‘low’ as it makes life easier.
Yes, I also know what it is to be stereotyped. I have often said it it not nice to be labeled as greedy and selfish each time I post a conservative opinion about the economy, taxes or something like that. I have to live with that all the time and everybody seems to think it is OK to disparage the moral values of people who are not liberals.
And, BTW, I love Asian women and lately all my girlfriends have been Asian. None of them had this sensitivity problem so I do not think it is fair for anyone here to speak for all Asians. Oversensitive and undersensitive people come, again, in all stripes and colors.
I just see this as being beyond overdone. people are asking “maybe I am a racist and I do not know it” just like people were being accused of being communists and not realizing ist 50 years ago.
I want to stress that I do not mean to offend anyone, just tell you how I see it. Just because it does not coincide with the way you see it doe not make you or me right or wrong.
archmichael and nekochan, yep, no arguement from me that you experienced all of those things and more, and it’s a sad statement on the US. I understand that Oriental gives you a bad taste, and I can even understand why (or as best a white boy can). We also heard from passerby why Asian would offend him.
I would like to hear your opinion and that of other Asians on the board as why “Asian” is not synonymous with “Oriental” in those examples you provided. For example, I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone in San Francisco bitch about “Oriental drivers” but I sure have heard an earful about “Asian drivers.” One could go through a lot of literature and find the same thing, for example Kim by Rudyard Kipling.
If someone has a link to an Asian-American group that has done some scholarly research on this issue, it would be appreciated. Be happy to do this off-line as well because I really want to understand this issue.
My biggest problem with all of this is not that some people find the word “oriental” obnoxious or distasteful, but that “asia” and “asian” are somehow fresh new words that are all embracing and do not carry negative bias. Back to my example, “oriental driver” is a slur while “asian driver” is a complement? Or, that’s a nice “Asian rug” is more enlightened than “Oriental rug” or that’s a nice “Kilim.” I’m not trying to bust any chops here, but I still haven’t been provide any reasons other than personal ones as to why I would a) get my degree changed from Oriental Languages to Asian Languages and b) chastize people who refer to my daughter as Oriental.
China Guy, it doesn’t surprise me that you are in academia. For you this is just a cerebral exercise. You take a look at the two words, see that they are etymologically similar and puzzle over why one a bad connotation and the other has good. You want to see cites. You want to see a published paper in which some recognized organization has written why ‘oriental’ is no longer deemed polite. I don’t know what to tell you, we have beat this dead horse to mulch.
If you want further cerebral exercise, maybe we can start a whole new neverending thread on why some American Buddhists refrain from using the swastika. I can see the conversations now.
China Guy: But archmichael the sauvastika is an Indian symbol of Buddhism that predates the German National Socialist party by hundreds of years!?!
archmichael: Gee, I don’t know what to tell you. I understand that the swastika has a good Buddhist meaning, but many Jews are offended by the symbol none the less.
China Guy: But the Buddhist sauvastika has the spokes pointing counter-clockwise, while the Nazi symbol has the spokes pointing clockwise.
archmichael: Like I sain China guy, Jews only see a symbol of hate, irregardless which stereoisomer it is
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So on and so forth. Oh, and before someone goes off. I am not equating ‘oriental’ to the use of the swastika. This is a visceral issue that you are trying to understand scholastically.
Keep your degree.
Call your daughter whatever you like. If you continue to live in China, you’re not going to have to deal with racism against her Chinese heritage. You are going to have to deal with the racism against her white heritage.
Thus far, I have seen some very personal and real reasons why some people, especially in the US, do not want the word “Oriental” used in connection with a person that has direct or indirect ancestry from the Far East. I accept that.
In keeping with a Great Debate, could someone provide some non-personal reasons why the word “Oriental” is no longer acceptable? Some reasons why the word “Oriental” and “Asian” are not interchangeable?
Perhaps it should be another thread, but how about definitions of what exactly an Asian or Oriental encompasses? There is the sub-continent; Central Asian Republics; Siberia; Mongolia; mountain states like Nepal and Bhutan; non-Pacific ocean countries like Burma; Japan; Korea; China; Malaysia; Philippines; Brunei; Malaysia; Indonesia; Irian Jaya; East Timor; Polynesia ancestry such as Guam, Micronesia, Tahiti; New Zealand and Australia.
BTW, this is a very personal issue for myself as well.
As Passerby accurately pointed out, the Middle East including Iran could be included in how Asia and the Orient are defined.
I dont see how you can include Oceania in the mix under oriental. Oceania encompases Micronesia, Polynesia, Melanesia, parts of Australia, Papua New Guinea. Oriental never included those areas.
Polynesia: the islands of the central & S Pacific including Hawaii, the Line, Phoenix, Tonga, Cook, & Samoa islands, Tuvalu, Easter Island, French Polynesia, & often New Zealand
Micronesia: the islands of the W Pacific E of the Philippines & N of Melanesia including the Caroline, Kiribati, Mariana, & Marshall groups
Melanesia: the islands in the Pacific NE of Australia & S of Micronesia including Bismarck Archipelago, the Solomons, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, & the Fijis
Oceania: the lands of the central & S Pacific including Micronesia, Melanesia, Polynesia (including New Zealand), often Australia, & sometimes the Malay Archipelago
I think looking for accuracy in these terms is kind of pointless at this stage because most racial/ethnic terms are so inaccurate.
People from the USA call themselves “Americans”. People from south of the border call themselves “Spanish”. Black people from the USA are called “African Americans”. Nobody really has any good definition of what “Hispanic” is when it comes to race: it is meaningless. Same thing goes for Latin-American.
So to demand any kind of rigor or precission when it comes to “oriental” or “asian” is kind of pointless.
Strictly speaking, Asian means from Asia. So if you are from India, you are Asian, if you are white from Asia, you are Asian.
If you are from the “Orient” (however you define that term) then you are “oriental”
Good luck trying to find any consensus on how to define any of all these terms.
While I haven’t agreed with sailor’s reading of Asian versus Oriental in re usage (although I do agree it’s not offensive in the proper sense of the term) he does stress a very valid point here.
All kinds of groupings are going to have an element of arbitrariness.
To take the example further, there is no objective division between Europe and Asia. We can make up some hand waving definition around the Urals or whatever, but this is mere fiction.
In the end all such descriptors are imprecise ones.
Imprecise and arbitrary, yes, but the difference is Asians ought to determine what others should call them just like anybody else. It’s at least justifiably arbitrary when you do it yourself.
I too will call people what they want.
But the one question I have is, Why is the term “Asian” used at all when describing those who were formerly called Oriental?
The continent of Asia contains the following countries:
But when someone says “Asian”, the first thing that comes to mind seems to be those from China, Japan, Korea (North and South) Vietnam et al.
Someone mentioned that porn sites use the term ‘Asian Porn’. But you only ever see pictures of young Japanese or Chinese girls. Where are all the Russians or Kazakhstans etc? We are talking Asian Porn right? IE: Porn from Asia?
If the term Oriental is considered wrong because it is:
Then shouldn’t the term “Asian” be wrong for the same reason??? If not, even more so?
Because “Asian” means “from Asia”, and “Asia” is a geographic term in current usage. Anyone who is uncertain as to where Asia is or what countries are located there can look in an atlas and find out. “Oriental” means “from the Orient”, but where is the Orient? Is it exactly the same as Asia? Many Americans seem to use the term to mean East Asia, but many Western Europeans use it to mean the Near East. (This usage is not unknown in the US, think of Oriental rugs.) A Bulgarian friend of mine told me that some Western Europeans even consider Eastern Europe to be “The Orient”.
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Well, those people are Asian, aren’t they? When someone says “European” the first thing that comes to my mind is people from France and Germany, but I am well aware that there are many other national and ethnic groups in Europe. Reasonably well-informed people know that, say, Nepal is just as much a part of Asia as China is, no matter what image the term “Asia” first excites in their minds.
People who for some reason wish to refer specifically to people from East Asia can use the convenient and easily understod term “East Asian”.
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And the porn industry is of course the final authority on all linguistic matters. :rolleyes:
While I am not the expert on exotic pornography that you seem to be, I would guess that if “Asian porn” is really exclusively East Asian then that would be largely due to the relatively relaxed governmental and social attitudes towards pornography in many East Asian nations. Market demand is probably also a factor. I doubt there is much American interest in seeing hot nude Kyrgyzstani babes, if only because most Americans haven’t got a clue where Kyrgyzstan is or what Kyrgyzstani women might look like.
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I think the section you quoted explains itself fairly well. “While “Asian” is not much more specific, it at least is a term bounded by geography, rather than paradigm.”
Doubleclick your whole point makes a lot of assumptions that are incorrect.
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That Asian people would not prefer to be called by their nationality. We do. I would think it’s awesome if some one took a look at me, and asked right off the bat, “Are you Korean”. However I do not think this is realistic, or fair to expect people to be able to do this. That is why I prefer Asian. The only other option is to have the person play the guessing game, and that is typically disastrous, and even more insulting. It seems to be getting better, but when I was younger most people didn’t know what the difference was between a Korean and Japanese and Chinese. They would typically follow up with “What’s the difference?” That is why I am content with just Asian. Generalization? Yes. Do I hope for better? Yes. Is my hope realistic? Nope. This leads me to the second assumption.
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That most people are as educated and intelligent as the people who have participated in this discussion. Most of the people here are very knowledeable of the different cultures that make up Asia. Most people are morons. Take a look at Jay Leno’s ‘Man on the Street’, and other similar sketches. Yes, it is edited to make the person look as stupid as possible, but most of them are that ignorant. Most people have problems identifying what states, US cities are located in. You expect these people to ask someone from South-East Asia, “Hey are you Vietnames/Thai/Khymer?”
The way I see it:
Asian means from the continent of Asia. The continent of Asia is precisely defined. It contains a definite list of countries, with a few countries being definitely split into European and Asian parts, and other countries being included/excluded under specific circumstances.
So when someone says “Asian” it is a very precise term. BUT, using the term “Asian” to refer to an ethnic group or culture or race is totally meaningless. The continent of Asia is so huge that it contains too many distinct cultures and ethnic groups to be lumped into a single designation.
Oriental means from the Orient. There is no precise definition of “Orient.” It really just means “East.” Each region or culture can use the word “Oriental” to refer to a different group without any of them being wrong (some mean Asian, some mean East Asian, etc.). In a way, using “Oriental” to refer to a group of people is slang. So I can see how this can become a bad word.
My objection to replacing “Oriental” by “Asian:” by definition Asian encompasses a huge number of cultures and people, by saying “I have an Asian friend” you’re spreading even worst ignorance that all Asians are similar and therefore can be precisely described with a single word. Somebody from Kuwait is Asian, and so is somebody in South Korea, yet they have nothing in common, as far as culture or appearance goes.
And “Asian” is not a term that has been in use for centuries to exclusively refer to people from East Asia. This is a terminology that has been inventend recently. You’d think people would choose a term that leads to less ignorance and misinformation. You’d think people would say “don’t call me Oriental, call me Japanese,” or “… call me Vietnamese,” not “… call me Asian [and picture in your mind that all people who come from the continent of Asia look the same and act the same].” If you really want to lump the Japanese, the Vietnamese, the Chinese, etc. in one group, invent another word, don’t overuse the name of a friggin’ continent!!!
Using the term “Asian” has potential to spread the most ignorance and misinformation ever. It solves nothing.
And Lamia, I guess you posted while I was writing this reply. The problem is that people want to replace the term Oriental by Asian, and for some people Oriental meant something more precise than “anybody from Asia.” And the straight replacement leads to bad definitions such as this usage note. So what does “Asian” mean now? Someone from Asia? Or someone from East and South Asia?
Thanks passerby. This was essentially my question.