Orthodox Jews

Factual Questions
41

Joltsucker,
Your story sounds a little like the family I married into. My mother-in-law converted to orthodox Judaism, but still remains very close to her family- and from what I can see, everyone is at peace with her decision.

It seems to have been a real learning experience for everyone. Our wedding was orthodox, which was pretty strange for all the non-Jews (odd ceremony, separate dancing). Everyone had a fantastic time, though, and at the end of the evening, I didn’t know who was jewish and who wasn’t (everyone was saying mazel tov and wearing kipas).

This degree of acceptance may not be the norm, but I feel really fortunate to be part of this give-and-take situation.

corvidae

42

Religion doesn’t seem to be the question. A couple of folks got it right. IT IS ABOUT CHOICES.

It is always difficult to watch people we love make decisions with which we disagree. Personally, I’ve watch a son and a daughter make some bad choices. It hurts.
We’re not talking about logic here. This is emotion; and the fact is that we’re powerless to control other people’s emotions. We’re powerless to prevent people from making bad decisions. Most of all we are incapable of making decisions for any but ourselves.

More than one previous poster has advised calm and unemotional conversation. That’s about all you can do. Then be prepared to provide support. I second the motion.

| | | | | | | | | |
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.

43

Clarification of my previous post:

I don’t mean to imply that I actually believe that Prufrock’s sister is making a bad decision - so far only Prufrock seems to believe that.

| | | | | | | | | |
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.

44

Good Lord! (pun intended) Dozens of responses, and only 2 or 3 people actually responding to my question. Most of the other reponders are using their junior psychology degree to tell me that I should let my sister make her own decision. Just a quick note, I am even LESS likely to take the advice of a bunch of strangers than my sister is to take my advice.

My only request throughout this entire discussion was for some quotes or passages that the Orthodox Jews use to justify certain acts that I consider oppressive and damaging to my sister. If she joined some new age cult and she was happy (and safe) I’d deal with it. But, she’s miserable. She just started college, and is having trouble making friends because she feels compelled to be friends with Orthdox Jews (this is small, liberal arts school, so it’s unlikely she’s going to meet many there) She’s also leaving the school every Friday because there isn’t an orthodox temple. She has to dress a certain way, and eat a certain way and live a certain way that’s making it impossible to have a social life.

So, if finding religion leaves her depressed, I’m going to do what I can to help her. I feel that providing her with facts is a way to help her. I appreciate the personal stories and the few posters that have actually tried to help me, but I’m not interested in a religious debate. I’m looking for facts.

45

Pruf, you’ve been told several times – the “facts” that you’re looking for DO NOT EXIST.

If you want texts debunking Orthodox practices as irrelevant to the modern world, the oldest texts you’ll be able to find will be from the Reform Movement in the mid 1800s.

There are no such “ancient” texts – unless you want to quote New Testament to her. The only such ancient texts would be from small sects that tried to interpret or reinterpret various passages to suit their own purposes; and that died out long, long ago (such as the Essenes.)

46

CKDextHavn -> You aren’t reading his question. He didn’t ask for anti-Orthodox texts (of which there are more than you think, anyway), he asked for Orthodox texts, in order to refute them.

Prufrock -> I have avoided responding directly until now, seeing that I’m a Gentile and a Christian, but it looks like one or two wise words are in order.

This is not a simple issue, and you’re not likely to find many people combining both the expertise and the desire to aid you. You will find that most of the Orthodox rules are based on the Torah (the first five books of the O.T., Genesis through Deuteronomy), but the rules themselves are to be found in the Talmud, a very long (many, many, many volumes) and technical collection of legal rulings, and I’m not even sure it’s completely available in English or any other modern language. Frankly, if you try to argue in that area, you’ll stand about the same chances as a non-English-speaking non-Lawyer trying to argue Constitutional Law pro se in the Supreme Court.

Part of the problem is that there hasn’t been a recognized central Jewish authority in many centuries, which has meant that Orthodox Jews have taken a very conservative approach to all modern questions, such as “Is turning on an electric light really the same thing as starting a fire?” One of the most ancient rabbinical proverbs is “Build a fence around Torah,” meaning that day-to-day rules should provide a safety zone, so that even if you cross the line, you probably won’t stray into the actually forbidden area. When you don’t have anyone to make a definitive ruling, that tends to make the pro-tem safety zone even wider.

There are also basic philosophical differences with A) Christianity and B) the modern world. For example, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism (and maybe the rest, for all I know to the contrary) both recognize the concept of an “unwitting sin”.

I am puzzled as to one issue. An Orthodox Jew, a fortiori a right-wing one (which the reference to Darwin seems to indicate), would not normally date a Gentile. If you (and your sister) are, in fact, Gentiles, then something else is going on here that I don’t understand. If, on the other hand, you are Jewish yourself, you should really be discussing this with a rabbi, who will be much bettter prepared to handle the intellectual side, and will also have a better notion of the exact flavor of Orthodoxy you’re dealing with.

John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

47

Thanks, Kennedy. Yes, we’re Jewsish (by birth, anyway) I don’t have a rabbi as I am not a big fan of organized religion in general (for me, personally…it works great for some people.) I’ve been trying to work on my own personal spirituality, but this isn’t much help to my sister. Your explanation helped a great deal, though. That, and the referral to another website explaining that the Talmud was written by rabbis as opposed to being the supposedly exact words of God, has helped me immensely. Thanks!

48

Prufrock, whether or not you’re comfortable with organized religion, you’re way out of your depth here. It sounds like you need to talk to a friendly, non-judgemental rabbi. Many are just that, actual mensches (sp?). Sure, some are pig-headed pricks, but if you run into one, call the next synagogue.

If your sister is as miserable as you say, it won’t last forever. It might last for a long time, but not forever. But do you have actual gripes, or just a complaint of “Oh my God, she’s gone religious!” If it’s the later, then perhaps you’re the one with the problem. She may end up going Conservative, but still very religious. Would you be happy, or still upset that she’s taking this stuff too seriously?

It sounds like you’re in a Reform kind of place, and your sister is obviously checking out Orthodoxy. When you look up rabbis, why don’t you split the difference and go looking for a nice, patient Conservative one?

49

<< CKDextHavn -> You aren’t reading his question. He didn’t ask for anti-Orthodox texts (of which there are more than you think, anyway), he asked for Orthodox texts, in order to refute them. >>

Well, that’s what I thought I said… you won’t find any ORTHODOX texts that refute Orthodoxy.

50

Actually, you will. The vast numerical majority of Talmudic text is commentary on commentary, and (just as with the Supreme Court) the dissenting opinions are included.

But again, what he actual said was (paraphrasing): “I want to know where these texts are, so I can study them and refute them.” Now, I know enough about the subject to know that an unprepared layman going to do battle in that area is going to end up toast, which is why I recommend that he confer with a Rabbi (left-wing Conservative would probably be the safest bet). But that’s what he was actually asking for.

John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

51

bump